You talk a lot but you’re not saying anything.
TRUE.
Rambler raver [j/k 
] said,
How can anyone show anyone else something they have absolutely no experience with?
Three words: Show and tell. Eva play dat in preschool ???
For people to believe in the truth behind flying crafts the law of aerodynamics changed minds! Without it we wouldn’t have made it to the moon! People didn’t know about it until they STARTED to get to know about it by exposure lil or a lot at a time, one just must have the willingness or a level of openness to learn something new. U game?
“Animism, the religion practiced by all indigenous peoples”
So far true, as far as my frame of reference provides. They say before takers taint their believes. Don’t take my advice read Daniel Quinn’s trilogy or should I say what you would put, this: As already mentioned, through personal information provided on this site and links to others. I’m not going to take the time to provide examples as this information is equally available to you as it was/is to me.
No really read the trilogy.
“This is false”
Yeah, sure, if you and only u say so. Give us something!
DEATH MEANS DEATH. FUCK! :
;D
“following”
Bites!?
I used used to go that route. Now I just use it, follow me?
On following:
Four words: Follower leader, leader follower. Following leading, leading following. Whateva makes ya cleva! :
One word:
Rewild
“How did you get in my head”
What!? I didn’t get in anyone’s head. SHIT! >:(
[calming down]
“I neglected to add “male” to what I observed as the predominant demographic, so I will now.”
Before I forget to add: People with attitudes similar to yours frighten the other sex away or into hiding…I observe.
[calming up]
“I don’t have conversations like this (the one your comment inspires) anymore”
Perhaps I should too. :-\ I do see a lot of b-english usage to get caught up on into deep @(#*$.
[calming down]
I love you all…REWILDers!
MOD: Oopsee! I assumed. Let me clarify, incase you havn’t read the trilogy, I suggest. My apologies.
what’choo on yo?
[quote=“Ann Onimus, post:14, topic:436”][quote]I see a very particular demographic represented here: white, urban, privileged, youthful, amerikan and idealistic.
Where did you get that? [/quote]
From reading profiles, blogs, on myspace and personal websites. It was pretty easy, really. I neglected to add “male” to what I observed as the predominant demographic, so I will now. :)[/quote]
yeah, this whole “male” thing keeps popping up…
interestingly, everytime some guy comes on and says “hey where are all the women?” we all get a strong reminder (from women) that we just need to pay attention and we’ll find them…
[quote=“Ann Onimus, post:14, topic:436”][quote]I’m categorically not really any of those things.
I think the majority of people here would feel the same way as you.
[/quote]
Really? To me it’s pretty self-evident to the contrary but maybe some facts elude me.[/quote]
i’d say the majority are white, maybe even male (i’m pretty hesitant to say that tho’), prolly the majority are youthful, but there’s a fair few in middle age and the occasional elder, some of us have experienced priviledge, but many have less than priviledged backgrounds (not necessarily so underpriviledge that they’ve gone thru the tragedies you list below, but…), there’s absolutely some people in urban settings (incld myself at the moment), but there’s also some people who aren’t.
shrug, like i said, i wouldn’t say it’s as inclusive as i’d like, but think taking it to exclusive is a misinterpretation.
[quote=“Ann Onimus, post:14, topic:436”]In trying for a more gentle entry as opposed to hurling a lot of questions out, I’ve not done so yet. This one has been bugging me:
And then just a few sentences later, in the same paragraph:
I can’t for the life of me understand this apparent contradiction. Why on earth would you set out to intentionally do something that you state is detrimental to the establishment of rewilding cultural groups?[/quote]
i think you caught you typo, that or a brain fart
good question. i haven’t really thought about it much. i haven’t so much been “targeting” any specific demographic, just whoever seems interested.
OK, maybe it’s just a languaging thing but that word “following” has always been problematic for me. I don’t follow themes, dogma, or strange men home (anymore, heh). I’m interested in being a co-creator of lived experiences and ideas shared in a mutually respectful and ever egalitarian fashion between human beings. I’m not a very good follower hence would make a very poor cult member which I think can easily be the demise of followers. I see merit in occasional chaos.[/quote]
eh, i think maybe you’re taking “following” in a direction US didn’t mean. could be wrong tho’. but “mutually respectful and ever egalitarian” is generally considered a good thing here.
You can’t “know” that. You can surmise, assume, presume, guess, envision, suppose, perhaps even predict although not with any certainty. It’s unknowable. To assume to know what is “better for all” reveals a level of arrogance and a penchant for patronizing that I’m very uncomfortable with.[/quote]
it’s a little dicey, i suppose, but there a pretty strong case can be made as long as we’re looking at things at the level of ecosystems.
I disagree. Death means change. Might be a great topic for a new thread.[/quote]
an excellent topic for a new thread! glad you thought of it!
[quote=“Ann Onimus, post:14, topic:436”]There are a few other things I’ve had difficulty understanding. Maybe I can seek clarity on this thread:
You spoke thus: “Our elders have long died.” No they haven’t. They are all around us. They are only made invisible by our lack of attention to them. Pay attention and be open to feeling that tap on your shoulder or that whisper in your ear or that nudge in your spirit. Or even to that post…stranger things have happened hehe. What makes you think all the elders and olders are dead?[/quote]
in a sense, you’re correct, but in another sense, US is equally correct. a lot of people here have had elders that have really failed to pass on much wisdom or knowledge. as for listening to spirits in the way you suggest, i used to think anyone could do it, now i’m much less certain. but, even if you can do it, that doesn’t mean you immediately recognize that you’re dealing w/ an elder. i think there’s quite a bit of room for exploration of this. another new thread?
it’s true, indigenous cultures have the greatest diversity of any cultures on earth. and, certainly, that means they have very different religious beliefs. but, there really is a thread of commonality to them, just as there is a thread of commonality between chinese culture & italian culture. animism describes an approach to religion (and the world) rather than the religion itself, imho, but anthropologists use it as the religion, so that’s generally how it’s used here. this would probably be a good conversation to have w/ jason godesky.
yeah, as you said, this is very similar to the animism issue (and that’s no coincidence!). i think this is a very valid point, and a huge miscommunication on our part. we recognize that “indigenous lifestyle” is going to vary (greatly!) from culture to culture (and landbase/bioregion to landbase/bioregion), but i don’t think we always communicate that well.
i would love to see such a language as well. no disrepect is intended, in fact, a great deal of respect is intended. we believe that your landbase/bioregion has a huge impact on how a culture should behave. so we tend to look at cultures that live in our area prior to “civilization” (something of an error in that statement, but i’d rather not follow that tangent atm) for an idea of what worked for them; sometimes (esp in the case of physical skills) we’ll try to duplicate it as closely as possible, whereas for more cultural ideas/tools/etc we’re more likely to try and find ways to “bridge the gap” so to speak between the culture we’ve been raised in and the bioregion we live in. there have been several such syncretic attempts, and all take pains to avoid cultural appropriation as much as possible.
i can see that you feel strongly about this, and, hell, i think that’s a good thing, but i don’t really agree. i don’t have any intention of “becoming shawnee/shawano”, but i’m more than willing (interested even) of learning about/listening to them and their history, their stories, their culture. i think that there’s valuable knowledge and wisdom there that will help me on my path towards becoming truly native to the land i live in.
truly, i hope you do, i think you’ve got some good insights, tho’ i don’t think that our opinions are as different from your own as you seem to think. perhaps i’m wrong, wouldn’t be the first time (nor the last).
Anonymous Ann,
I feel curious as to how you think the demographic of usership got here? I get the feeling that you imagine a bunch of clean cut white boys on the cusp between suburbia and the city putting down their x-box controllers for a moment to whip out their blackberries and text their equally white bread possie about the bitchin new site where you can get your primitive skills on.
This site has grown organically out of a few different communities where the only “targeting” that happened came from people seeing the same kind of interest in each other. IshCon and Anthropik fed a lot of this community before this site got started. So I think a better question to ask might go like this: “Why do so many young, privileged, urban, white boys dig this rewilidng stuff?”
The only real marketing I have ever done for this site (other than blabbing about it via myspace and my blog) involved mentioning it on other peoples blogs whom I had discovered and thought they might enjoy the kind of conversations we have here. People like Giulianna Lamana (self proclaimed prissy primitivist [to the superlative degree]) and HoboStripper. I don’t know how old or proviliged you could consider either of these girls. I think both of them would consider themselves Caucasian. Giuli lives in the city, and HS lives in a van.
I really don’t understand how you expect that anyone does “targeting” here.
Let me tell you how I came here, in order to answer the question I suggest that you should have asked:
Ever since I read Daniel Quinn and realized why I hate my civilized life, I started looking for other people to bond with over these issues. I found IshCon once, but didn’t feel comfortable there and moved on to follow my other interests like herbology. But occasionally, I would hop on the internet and do a search for things like “daniel quinn” and “anti-civilization” to see what popped up. I did that most recently back in January, and I discovered Anthropik and Urban Scout. I really connected with the kind of things they discussed, and I felt inspired by the fact that they had formulated plans for this thing they called “rewilding”.
Wow, I thought, people have started trying to undomesticate themselves. I kept reading and discovered more blogs. Some came across more overtly than others with the whole anti-civ thing. They all seemed to know each other (from IshCon, I suppose) and posted on each others’ blogs. I found myself joining in their conversations (mostly in the comments on their blogs) and discovered that I had something to say. I felt inspired by the journeys of undomestication I read about, and I decided to open shop for myself, writing about my own experiments in trying learn lost skills.
After not much time had passed, Urban Scout sent me an email asking about my skills with websites and hinting that he wanted to start a new site for people to get together and share these kinds of ideas. A few days later, he did just that. I assume that a lot of other people that US had already developed a relationship with got similar emails about this new site, as several of them had already joined by the time I got here and created my account.
How we grew from there, I can’t really answer. I know that US already had a community of (god forbid) like-minded people from similar walks of life doing rewilding in Portland. I know that some of the pre-rewild.info-blog-friendship community advertised this site on their blogs, as did I. We got a boost in attention when Anthropik dissolved their forums and incorporated their site with ours. I bet some people find us through search engines. But really, I would venture that the majority of the growth has happened very rhizomatically. One connection simply leading to another. Please forgive us if we happen to connect with people of similar backgrounds, if our friendships that have grown this site do not meet the diversity requirements you seem to measure us by.
But please do not assume any sort of exclusivity on our parts for happening to have descended from ancestors originating in the Caucus mountains. By the way, as a speaker of the English language, I claim absolute cultural appropriateness in using the term “abo” to describe my intentions for myself, as the word comes from the language I speak to describe a way of life that I aspire toward.
And I like a healthy degree of chaos too.
I prefer the term “Native”, not in the sense that it describes the indeginous culture of north america, but in the sense that it means to belong to the land you live on. My blood and my culture are “native” to scandinavia, but I’d like my children’s culture to be “native” to here.
Hey all. First off, thanks for some thoughtful and respectful responses. I’m continuing to learn how to communicate without resorting to sarcasm and rudeness. It’s hard sometimes, and requires self-discipline that I’m sometimes lacking but nevertheless working on. I appreciate the efforts towards kindness and mutual respect. Communicating from the heart means far more to me than communicating from the head.
I realize after more reading that’s it’s just probably not a very good fit right now for me to be here. We have similar intrinsic and extrinsic goals in many ways, but I think we are too disparate in our plans on how to get there. When I read and find more things that I disagree with than agree with, I’m up against a decision to either become a forum antagonist or just pick myself up and move on. I think the latter option is best for now.
I hope to see you around and stop in to say hi once in awhile. Ya never know when and how we will need each other in the future.
I think that I’ll still get email notification for PMs. You are welcome to give me a shout if you think I might be able to help out with something.
Take care, practice kindness and compassion to yourself, others and your environment.
Toksa.
I meant to mention too that for those of you in the Portland area who are interested in learning more about respecting Elders, indigenous wisdom and so forth, an option is the Earth and Spirit Council.
http://www.earthandspirit.org/NaturalWay/nat_way.html
I’ve never been there so don’t have the benefit of first-hand experience, but the founders are a part of my extended family.
Cheers.
Ann,
I agree that this site doesn’t sound like a good fit.
Also, our administrator Willem is on the board of the Natural Way committee. I also highly recommend it for others who live in Portland.
[quote=“Ann”]I meant to mention too that for those of you in the Portland area who are interested in learning more about respecting Elders, indigenous wisdom and so forth, an option is the Earth and Spirit Council.
http://www.earthandspirit.org/NaturalWay/nat_way.html[/quote]
Awesome! Thanks for plugging that Ann.
[quote=“Urban Scout, post:23, topic:436”]Ann,
I agree that this site doesn’t sound like a good fit.
Also, our administrator Willem is on the board of the Natural Way committee. I also highly recommend it for others who live in Portland.[/quote]
I can’t deny that. In a couple weeks some hard work will come to fruition - I’ll finally get to bring an amazing Mohawk Elder and speaker, Tekaronianeken Jake Swamp, to town for the speaker series. If you haven’t looked into what he’ll speak about, please check out my website http://www.mythic-cartography.org or the natural way site for more info.
I feel so excited!
Ann, as far as how well this site serves you, I agree that it doesn’t match what a lot of people need out of a forum like this. Inshallah our community will continue to grow and other folks with other more relevant priorities (for those other needs) will create more forums to serve the diverse interests of folks working on radical culture change.
Take care and good luck with your own work in community building!
You too. Thank you! Have fun!
??? But you just started posting! I don’t even know/understand what your plans are…
again ???
can i ask what things do you disagree with? i’m honestly interested…
well, i feel more than a little confused, but, i wish you well, and i’m glad we aren’t parting on bad terms.
I realize after more reading that's it's just probably not a very good fit right now for me to be here. We have similar intrinsic and extrinsic goals in many ways, but I think we are too disparate in our plans on how to get there. When I read and find more things that I disagree with than agree with, I'm up against a decision to either become a forum antagonist or just pick myself up and move on. I think the latter option is best for now.
I understand your perspective, and I certainly wouldn’t want to encourage you to do something you don’t want to do. But I, for one, really appreciate a good counter argument now and again. I really looked forward to seeing what you had to say regarding specific threads here in the hopes that you might shed a kind of light on things that might help us see them better from your perspective.
I think that I'll still get email notification for PMs. You are welcome to give me a shout if you think I might be able to help out with something.
Ha. How would I know what to PM you about since I never really got to know what kind of thing you could help out with?
I hope to see you around and stop in to say hi once in awhile. Ya never know when and how we will need each other in the future.
I hope you keep your account open and just drop in whenever you get the urge. A lot of our users have a transient relationship with the boards, so seeing a name drop out of site for a while to pop back up later won’t pose a problem.
I wish you the best, Toksa, in your endeavors.
umm some mod should ban him
I’d have to agree with ya, only because, to me, it sounds like a scam, a bot…some football promoting bot!
Ok, I know this is hella late that I’m finding this thread, but I’m posting anyway.
I was surprised to read the negative responses to this post. I thought Ann Onimus’s post was polite, thoughtful and accurate enough that a discussion and not a defense was warranted. Of course we all respond differently to criticism, the community that I’ve run with the past 11 years is really into tearing into our learned social habits to examine the crap that has been ingrained into how we see ourselves and the people around us.
I think it is good to keep in mind that our various privileges are not something to be ashamed of, but something to be aware of, so that we can try to avoid exploiting them in fucked up and subconscious ways. I have a lot of privilege in my life in spite of the fact that I grew up poor and am transsexual. Being perceived as white is a huge thing in America, it has profoundly affected my life.
I could talk about this for hours, but since this thread seems pretty dead, I’ll just let it lay. Had to throw in my two cents though.
I remember reading this thread and something about the points Ann Onimus brought up was really interesting to me, but I couldn’t put my finger on it.
But thinking about it now, I think I know what it was.
There is a tragic irony in rewilding—
In civ, the closer to the top of the hierarchy you are, the more access you have to information, along with the knowledge of how to find it, how to think critically (a rigorous college will teach you this to some extent, whereas most [American] high schools won’t), and the technological/time resources needed to inform yourself. And in modern society, access to information increasingly determines, and is determined by, class structure.
The more you know, the more of the larger pattern you can recognize. The more uninformed you are, and the more beaten down, the more likely you are to 1. be blind to the problems of civilization, 2. accept your situation, and 3. not consider alternatives or have much time or energy to pursue those alternatives. Often the impoverished (culturally or economically) or in other ways more oppressed people are less informed.
I’m not saying that it’s impossible for some people to rewild… it’s just a LOT more difficult and it takes an exceptional sort of person to overcome being born lower on the ladder and enlightening oneself as to what needs to be done. I don’t take my childhood socioeconomic privilege for granted for an instant. But I also have to think about the ways I’ve been denied my own humanness in various ways and understand what it means to overcome them. Intense loneliness, sexual and emotional repression, irrational levels of obedience to my parents and teachers, my small town always labeling me, telling me who I am and how I should act … those things are unnatural and not anything any human deserves, especially as a child.
Do I understand you to mean that the more “privileged” people are more able to “rewild”?
I think all that privilege is likely to be a handicap. The more privileged have more to give up or lose or let go of. And they are more likely to want to bring their false sense of superiority (and other misconceptions) along with them.
The “less privileged”(I’m real uncomfortable with this terminology) might be much farther along the road without all the baggage that comes along with calling it “rewilding” and putting it in an ideological pigeon hole.
A lot of the “poor” people have nothing but alternatives because the mainstream promise of the “good life” is something they don’t have a hope in hell of ever experiencing. They don’t have to reject mainstream because mainstream already rejected them. It’s something they have never been included in.
What they need is a positive alternative instead of one that will land them in prison or a body bag on their way home from Iraq.
Sorry if this sounds like an attack on what you said. I do have a thing about the idea that a college education or economic status is an indication of a persons intelligence or ability to clearly see the situation they are in and work towards alternatives. They’re poor not stupid.
As I was writing that post I felt “privilege” wasn’t the word I wanted to use but I couldn’t find another word for it. “Luck” maybe? And what I meant to say is that the more “informed” people are more likely to rewild (in other words, look for an alternative that speaks to them).
Nowhere did I say anything about intelligence, only access to information. If you live in a state of socioeconomic oppression, you have fewer resources for getting informed. (I admittedly have a very dramatic imagination and I think globally most of the time, so my mental image of that kind of oppression was sweatshop labor. That kills me, to think of people who are in situations where they are consumed by meaningless work.)
In my experience, the information that was presented to me in college helped me, in the sense that I learned to be very critical of the status quo. I started to recognize larger patterns in society that I wouldn’t have seen before. All of those patterns point to the unsustainable nature of civilization. This is the “information” I’m talking about… take history classes for example. When you start to know enough about different times in history and you can start to compare them to your own surroundings and evaluate what’s going on in your own time. This is what I did, anyway.
Maybe it’s a bit different in Canada, but in the US I’ve noticed that a lot of people who don’t have much socioeconomic status, and a high school education that can only be called a “holding cell”, and their lives consist of working a job they hate to pay the bills, eating junk food, and playing video games. I grew up in a poor rural area with lots of failing family farms. This is what I’ve seen. I’ve seen people who don’t think they have any alternatives. Not for lack of intelligence, but for not getting the experiences and education they need in order to know within themselves that living outside the box is even possible. They don’t even see a box, so how can they see outside it?
I had a high school friend whose parents got the middle finger from the “invisible hand” of economics. Their farm was failing, and her home life was really stressful. To cope she turned to art and music. She wanted to attend an art school in Pennsylvania.
Well, she didn’t get into that art school and so instead she stuck around the area where we grew up, and around the same time got into a relationship with someone of bad character and her life became focused on that instead of art. She became pregnant and one night around midnight she was driving home and the car (who knows why) went into the oncoming lane of traffic and had a head-on collision with another car.
I don’t know what happened in that car. I know that you can drive down the road she was on, at that time of night, and not see an oncoming car for miles. Unless she was literally falling asleep at the wheel, I don’t see how she could have missed seeing the other car. Or maybe she was really drunk. Or she could have done it intentionally. All I know is that after the art school rejected her, she stopped looking outside of the box, up to the very end. A very intelligent, emotional girl who made the youthful mistake of putting all her eggs in one basket. And there was nobody in her life who could recognize how she might have felt about rejection from art school (her parents didn’t understand why she wanted to go), and point out other egg baskets, other alternatives. Even if I had been around and aware of what she was going through (and I wasn’t fully aware at the time, I was halfway across the state) I don’t think I would have been able to say what she needed to hear. Now that I’m older I think I see what was going on with her a little better.
I believe that if her family had been able to make ends meet a little better, her parents would have encouraged her to seek more alternatives. As it was, they were in their own “box” of being trapped by financial woes.
I think what we’re looking at more is the specific situations that one might find themselves in that are more or less likely to lead them to this particular path, some of which just happen to be more common among people in higher “classes”. Being sufficiently well read, having regular internet access, and stumbling towards the right ideas usually happens to people whose parents make a certain amount of money. In many areas, anyone can go to a library and get the books, or log onto a computer. But middle and upper classed young people are more likely to do these things.
For what it’s worth, I’m young, male, “multi-racial”, come from a poor family, live in the woods, and attended college (finishing up my last course, in fact). Despite the fact that my degree is in Anthropology, many of these ideas developed outside of the academic setting, though often instigated by school-related things. A class on culture change and globalization made me hate capitalism and neo-liberal economics, one about N. American natives led me to listening to a Dine’ punk band, whose lyrics led me to anarchism, which led me to Green Anarchy magazine, which made me receptive to the Rewild.info advertisement I read in Wilderness Way. I stayed here after reading Jason’s Thirty Theses, which is just the sort of thing an anthropologist likes to read! And all of this can be traced far far back to my initial interest in Neo-Pagan religions as a teen, which was only allowed to develop because my parents got me into reading and we had internet access at home (eventually).
I guess what I’m saying here is that one circumstance can have far-reaching effects down the line, and while “class” isn’t a determinate, it’s one of the many circumstances that influence what resources we end up using. Plenty of it, also, is just sheer blundering.