Hey all. You’ve probably noticed me checking you out the past few days. I was invited over here and have been pretty fascinated with the materials available at this site. Thanks to everyone who has contributed their time, their thoughts and their energy. There seems to be a strong core group and a great deal of cohesiveness of philosophy.
My dilemma is that I’m unsure of where I stand relative to the group-think here. I see a number of contradictions but am perhaps limited by my own understandings. I see a very particular demographic represented here: white, urban, privileged, youthful, amerikan and idealistic. There are few outliers. I’m categorically not really any of those things. Where I could be, I’m marginalized to the point where I’m no longer recognized as such.
Some of the threads have elicited in me a reaction of punching the air and giggling that you, too, recognize what I do. Other threads have got me so pissed off that I simply can’t recognize the part of you that I once connected with. A lot of threads just simply confuse the hell out of me. You seem to sometimes speak a language that is demographic-specific, and not easily discernable or understandable to an outsider.
That’s ok. These aren’t judgments so much as observations and impressions. So I thought to throw out my introduction of myself to y’all by way of asking for a little clarification. In that way I see a two-fold purpose in that I might understand you more, and the members here might have a chance to become more transparent not only to each other but perhaps–and more meaningfully so–to themselves.
So, if you agree with me that your current membership is reflective of a rather exclusive bunch, are you wanting to broaden that at all? If you disagree with my observations, can you tell me where I went wrong in those observations? Are you open to embracing and even actively attracting folks who are unlike yourself? Folks who have perhaps lived past their idealism and are now more focused on walking the walk rather than just talking the talk?
To me there is a huge difference between preparing for an imminent collapse and wishing for the destruction of fellow human beings. Is there room here for peaceniks who genuinely care for the wellbeing of all creatures on Earth? Does your desire for the end of humanity as we know it mean that there is an insurmountable and irreparable chasm between you and me because of my abiding love for the Earth and All who live here?
I have many others questions but this initial post is longer than I’d planned and I’m more looking for your responses than needing to share my impressions at this point.
I see a very particular demographic represented here: white, urban, privileged, youthful, amerikan and idealistic.
Where did you get that?
I'm categorically not really any of those things.
I think the majority of people here would feel the same way as you.
A lot of threads just simply confuse the hell out of me. You seem to sometimes speak a language that is demographic-specific, and not easily discernable or understandable to an outsider.
Since the language stands on a foundation of philosophy, I encourage you to ask for specifics about each topic as it arises. Feel free to ask questions about what you see as contradictions.
So, if you agree with me that your current membership is reflective of a rather exclusive bunch, are you wanting to broaden that at all?
I don’t agree with you about how you have discerned the membership, so your question does not apply.
If you disagree with my observations, can you tell me where I went wrong in those observations?
I’d like to know how you came to those observations. Use specific examples please.
Are you open to embracing and even actively attracting folks who are unlike yourself?
This website has a theme; creating a culture that will last beyond civilization. I’d like to meet folks who believe in following the theme.
Folks who have perhaps lived past their idealism and are now more focused on walking the walk rather than just talking the talk?
As I have clarified in other threads, people at this site do in fact, “walk the talk.” Rewilding involves working on many aspects of cultural creation. It refers to a verb, not a static state. Therefore you cannot seperate “walk” from “talk.” It makes no sense.
To me there is a huge difference between preparing for an imminent collapse and wishing for the destruction of fellow human beings.
I agree. I don’t wish for all people to die. I also understand that the population has extended very far beyond the carrying capacity of the land. I also know that the sooner the crash happens, the softer it will crash, and therefore the better for all.
I also would like to state again that rewilding does not refer to “pre-paring for the collapse” but to the process of un-doing domestication. The crash ideology can fuel someones decision to rewild as a strategy to survive collapse, but rewilding itself encompasses more than “wilderness survival.”
Is there room here for peaceniks who genuinely care for the wellbeing of all creatures on Earth?
The wild world has violence. Rewilding acknowledges that violence exists, and neither sees violence as “good” or “bad” but another tool. For example, it takes violence to kill plants and animals. Death means violence. Yet violence can also serve other ends that destroy more life than necessary. Peacenics may make this site a home away from home. Other peacniks may not accept that wildness involves violence.
Anyone who wishes to learn about rewilding and contribute here may find a second home here. Others, may get scared away or bored.
Does your desire for the end of humanity as we know it mean that there is an insurmountable and irreparable chasm between you and me because of my abiding love for the Earth and All who live here?
Rewilding does not have anything to do with a “desire for the end of humanity as we know it.” It refers to specific processes and strategies of subsistence that destroy the landbase; agriculture and civilization. If you understand that these things are killing the planet and do not have a desire for them to end, I hardly doubt you have an abiding love for the earth or anything that lives here.
that’s largely because there’s a great deal of history among a number of “regulars” & “semi-regulars” that stretches back before this site’s inception, so a decent chunk of the “basic philosophy” has been pretty well worked thru. in some ways, what we do most here is try to figure out the details.
ha! that’s fair. honestly, i’m more surprised when someone starts posting with “at long last! i get it!”.
to an extent, i can see where you get this, but i think it’s only somewhat accurate.
i don’t want to start speaking for everyone, so i’ll just cover myself: i am white, and american (not sure what you mean by “amerikan”, not familiar with that). i’m 33 (does that count as youthful, not sure). i’m currently urban and, financially, i’m not struggling, but then again, i’ve lived dirt poor in inner cities, dirt poor in small towns, and “middle-class” in both. my first paying job was at 15 in a small out of the way factory (paid under the table). it’s true, i did go to college, but i worked thru it (assorted jobs, incl: janitor, office worker, bell boy, etc).
hmm, well, that’s troubling. hopefully we can clear some of that up? any suggestions on how we can make some of this more transparent to newcomers?
see above. i don’t think you’re entirely “on” or “off” on that. i don’t think i’d say it’s exclusive so much as not as inclusive as i’d like. that might be splitting hairs.
i think there’s a place here for idealism, but it’s really not required. i’m absolutely not an idealist, and i fit in fine. as far as folks unlike myself, there’s actually quite a few here already, but i wouldn’t mind more
absolutely. i think it’s often hard for primitivists to avoid meandering over into the latter, simply because of the damage that 6.5 billion odd people inflicts. that’s not an excuse, but something of an explanation. there’s an emotional conflict involved, it’s not an easy thing.
Urban Scout kind of touched on this, but, i want to extend his comments a little. caring for the wellbeing of all creatures on Earth doesn’t mean there’s no violence (in the most honest definition). my own preference is not to “care for the wellbeing of all creatures on Earth” so much as it is to “care for the wellbeing of all of Earth’s ecosystems/bioregions/habitats”. it’s a small and subtle difference, but i think it’s an important one to make.
i don’t think so. first off, as US said, we don’t want the end of humanity as we know it, we want the end of civilization, so humanity can go back to living in the context that we evloved to live in. we want to remove the illusion of separation between humanity and the rest of creation.
“we want to remove the illusion of separation between humanity and the rest of creation.”
There it is, nothing else needs to be posted here. That can not be done with the intellect. You can write thousands of pages on that and you will only find yourself off on a tangent. A web site about it is like an oxy-moron.
hmm, well, i don’t think it can be done with only the intellect, but don’t you think that using the intellect alongside other ways of knowing can help?
I see a very particular demographic represented here: white, urban, privileged, youthful, amerikan and idealistic. There are few outliers. I'm categorically not really any of those things. Where I could be, I'm marginalized to the point where I'm no longer recognized as such.
I see where you get the idea about the demographic. Certainly, you could use several of those adjectives to describe quite a few people here. That doesn’t mean that they all apply. And it doesn’t mean that doesn’t mean that we don’t welcome more than that specific section of the spectrum.
I think if we have a certain demographic here it comes probably from the fact that folks within that demographic feel the problems within civilization very strongly, and they have been the first to arrive. Keep in mind that this site only started running in – March, was it? – so I feel like we have just barely gotten past our infancy.
I certainly hope to attract more “seasoned” folks who have worked their way farther along the spectrum than I have. The whole point of rewilding rests in the journey, not the destination.
Some of the threads have elicited in me a reaction of punching the air and giggling that you, too, recognize what I do. Other threads have got me so pissed off that I simply can't recognize the part of you that I once connected with. A lot of threads just simply confuse the hell out of me. You seem to sometimes speak a language that is demographic-specific, and not easily discernable or understandable to an outsider.
So engage the conversation. The participants in that thread may very well welcome a new voice and a different perspective.
However, you say “you” as if all of the users here fit the same mold. I definitely don’t think we do. The demographic may not feel diverse enough to where you feel like you fit into it easily, but that doesn’t mean that we all fit into the same way either. I have a lot in common with some of the users here, but I often disagree with others’ perspectives as well.
I think the only remedy for your confusion, though, lies in addressing the threads that confuse you. I definitely welcome conflict and counter arguments in any thread here. I always feel eager to see a new perspective presented.
So, if you agree with me that your current membership is reflective of a rather exclusive bunch, are you wanting to broaden that at all? If you disagree with my observations, can you tell me where I went wrong in those observations? Are you open to embracing and even actively attracting folks who are unlike yourself? Folks who have perhaps lived past their idealism and are now more focused on walking the walk rather than just talking the talk?
While I agree that you may notice a lot of similarities among the membership here, I would never use the word “exclusive” to describe it. I have only ever excluded one user from this forum, and that happened because he threatened violence against another user. Up until that point, I openly welcomed his differing perspectives and even his antagonism as long as it served to further conversations on these boards.
I feel pretty sad about the fact that you seem to take the state of the current membership as matter of exclusivity. Again, keep in mind that this site has only existed for a few months and that it has grown mostly via word of mouth – which words usually travel from friend to friend within already existing groups. As the word travels farther, it will eventually reach groups that have less in common than the core from which the word started travelling. So I think the conclusions you have come to about the membership have more to do with the age of the site than any demographic status of the people on the site.
As for idealism: you are not the first person to come to this conclusion about this site. I think the site comes across as more idealistic than practical because:
(1) We do a lot of questioning here. Certainly the philosophical discussions have attracted more attention than most of the practical discussions. I think this stems from the fact that even for those who focus on practical things, we all have a philosophy, and we enjoy discussing it.
(2) We don’t all discuss our practical things here. A lot of us have blogs where you can see more of our “doing”. And some of us don’t even talk so much about our “doing” there. But that doesn’t mean that the doing doesn’t happen.
(3) Urban Scout comes across as an idealist. I find that a shame because he really does a hell of a lot. But he also has a very loud persona and very strong (and emotional at times) opinions. None of that precludes his ability to walk the walk about which he talks, but it sometimes overpowers the walk in the minds of people who chose to make quick judgements against him due to the fact that he does talk. I guaran-god-damn-tee you, though, that I would not have come so far in my own walk without all that talk that goes on here.
Which comes back to the whole purpose of the site: a place to discuss rewilding. A lot of people need a lot of discussion (I fit that category). But the goal behind the discussion (for me) rests in rewilding my thoughts as much as I rewild my actions.
But I challenge everyone who comes to this site to understand that any idealism expressed (or perceived) here does not preclude action past the idealism. Perhaps for a lot of users here, the idealism will fade in time. But for now, I hope that it fuels their actions as I try to let it fuel mine.
I sense that you probably have a very well defined perspective that you can bring to this forum. I openly welcome that, and I encourage you to engage in the discussions going on. Even if a thread has died down, feel free to revive it and shed your own light on it.
I don’t know, I reached that conclusion with my intellect, and it seems adequate to me. I think we’re not using the same terms to describe the same things.
Ann, all your observations hit home with me (I am, sadly, all those things). I think that’s mostly because that is the demographic most likely to possess internet access, free time, and decent english, all things needed to participate in discussion in this medium. And that is precisely WHY this community needs other viewpoints. So when you see contradictions, point them out and explain why they are contradictions. When a thread makes you angry, share your reasons for your anger. When you feel the need to laugh at somthing, let us know. This is how our ideas improve.
Idealism does not preclude doing. It leads to doing. Were I not an idealist, I wouldn’t bother doing things different than my neighbors.
[quote=“heyvictor, post:4, topic:436”]“we want to remove the illusion of separation between humanity and the rest of creation.”
There it is, nothing else needs to be posted here. That can not be done with the intellect. You can write thousands of pages on that and you will only find yourself off on a tangent. A web site about it is like an oxy-moron.[/quote]
For me it started with the intellect. As a very cerebral person, pretty much any new perspective I come to in life starts that way.
In fact for any dichotomy that exists as a matter of perspective (which exists in the mind) where else would you begin?
How about instead of judging us for having dialogue, heyvictor, you tell us how you came to your perspective. Point us down your own path so that we can learn from your experience.
[quote=“heyvictor, post:4, topic:436”]“we want to remove the illusion of separation between humanity and the rest of creation.”
There it is, nothing else needs to be posted here. That can not be done with the intellect. You can write thousands of pages on that and you will only find yourself off on a tangent. A web site about it is like an oxy-moron.[/quote]
Okay, well, we’ll just shut down the 'ol Rewild site then. Whew! All that work for nothing, I guess…Good bye everyone! Back to your 9 to 5 jobs for some, back to the skillz rendezvous for others.
I don’t really get your point. In all honesty, I don’t have conversations like this (the one your comment inspires) anymore, as I can’t possibly defend what I do here, (having supported rewild.info from the beginning) in the face of your disinterest in how it has enriched my life and others. I think you’ve already won, if you want to “be” right. If you want to understand people here, we may have to take the slow boat to sort things out.
I don’t really have a problem with either one, though I won’t engage much with you when you seem sure of your “rightness” and our “wrongness” (keep in mind the diversity of individuals here too…we don’t really have a “we”, a lot of us disagree on many things). I like what you said in another thread about discouraging divisiveness, but here the division looms large. Why do you seem to want to encourage it in this context? Perhaps we both have gaps in our understandings of each other, rather than us just not getting you?
Consider getting to know us better, and asking more questions, before writing us off as “oxy-morons”. I’d sure appreciate it, and I’d love for you to feel like you could share your hard-won knowledge here.
I can say this for sure: anyone who hasn’t come here to learn or contribute, doesn’t belong here.
The first posts I read here when I came to this forum had a lot to do with calling bullshit on some things that other people are doing that I consider to be very worthwhile. So I guess I have been doing the same for you folks.
I see a pitfall here that I am trying to point out. I am being abrasive and coming off as judgemental.
I’d like to see people take this much deeper.
“we want to remove the illusion of separation between humanity and the rest of creation.”
I believe that this is not an intellectual process. I don’t think it could be done that way. It is and experience not an idea.
The first posts I read here when I came to this forum had a lot to do with calling bullshit on some things that other people are doing that I consider to be very worthwhile. So I guess I have been doing the same for you folks.
Thank you for admitting that.
"we want to remove the illusion of separation between humanity and the rest of creation."
I believe that this is not an intellectual process. I don't think it could be done that way. It is and experience not an idea.
It definitely needs to be experienced. But for some – maybe lots – of folks, it can begin as an idea. Our understanding of how we relate to the world is just that: an understanding – something done with the brain. You can change that understanding with an intellectual conversation or you can thrust someone into a life situation where they can experience it first-hand. I don’t have the power to literally push anyone out of their current life situation, but we can confab on what that means to us, and someone (just like I did) can get something out of that conversation.
[quote=“heyvictor, post:10, topic:436”]“we want to remove the illusion of separation between humanity and the rest of creation.”
I believe that this is not an intellectual process. I don’t think it could be done that way. It is and experience not an idea.[/quote]
i guess where you’re losing me on this is: say someone has a broken leg. do i take his crutch away? or do i help them while they’re healing?
there’s this idea that humans are particularly “special”. that we’re somehow free from the contraints that apply to other animals. recogizing that this is utterly false is a basis of what we’re doing here, and, even tho’, feeling that as more than just an intellectual idea is important, i think you’ll generally find that most people don’t pay it any mind, so talking about it on an intellectual level is one way to get started towards that fuller experience.
so, i’m confused about why you don’t see the value. no one here is saying that that’s where you stop. it might be where you start, it might be an occasional visit, but a purely intellectual experience isn’t where we intend to stop, and very few (if any) of us stop there.
okay, fair enough. some of the posts when you first arrived were half-vents about how the cultural aspects of what indigenous people did often don’t get enough play. i’m not sure exactly which specific things you’re referring to but, believe it or not, primitive skills are highly valued here, as are the people who practice them.
I want to address this tangent by saying my waddling through the process of enlightenment, that is, re-membering with the community of life (the Way), began with a book that my intellect read out loud for my whole being to absorb. Trying to make the intellect go away is like trying to make the pig fly. Sure, you can put it into a shiny airplane, but that airplane is only throwing itself at the ground and missing.
Where am I?
One foot in, one foot out. one hemisphere on, one hemisphere off. It’s okay, the disco ball doesn’t turn forever.
Who are you?
I am he-who-plays-with-fire(Tony Bill, TonyZ, TeeZee, TonyZed, MC Z, Mr.Z, Mr. Know-It-All…), who are you?
How did you get in my head?
Because the truth lives in the eternal self; Our access to the eternal self is only granted to those who stop the whirring of the machines long enough to listen.
I am more open than you know to attracting new types of people, who do you have in mind? Other than yourself, are you talking about your friends? A standing cohesive group that only needs experience to put thoughts to practice? I’ve been navigating these click-infested for years now, who have you found?
civilization (does not equal) humanity. The idea of humanity itself is a lie of civilization; it’s a concept that all people are somehow unite, special, parallel. But anthropology tells a different story. There are genetic paths that lead back to the same trail, but if there ‘is’ a common destiny, it would have to be to diversify, to get away form this concept of humanism and humanity.
People, the people around us, are our band, one day, these bands may form clans, one day, these clans may form tribes, or something different.
I think we are all here to find people near us reaby to exist in a new way.
Thanks for all the replies. There’s a lot to go through here and I’m not sure how best to respond without omitting some. Thanks especially to those who went to the effort to just keep it real. Bullshit is boring.
Urban Scout, I appreciate what you wrote. I’ll respond to some of your points but probably cannot respond in depth to them all. I hope it doesn’t seem like I’m picking on you. You were the first to respond so I’ll do my best to likewise respond.
[i]I see a very particular demographic represented here: white, urban, privileged, youthful, amerikan and idealistic.[/i]
Where did you get that?
From reading profiles, blogs, on myspace and personal websites. It was pretty easy, really. I neglected to add "male" to what I observed as the predominant demographic, so I will now. :)
[i]I'm categorically not really any of those things.[/i]
I think the majority of people here would feel the same way as you.
Really? To me it's pretty self-evident to the contrary but maybe some facts elude me.
Since the language stands on a foundation of philosophy, I encourage you to ask for specifics about each topic as it arises. Feel free to ask questions about what you see as contradictions.
I will. In trying for a more gentle entry as opposed to hurling a lot of questions out, I've not done so yet. This one has been bugging me:
Because I believe we're headed for serious trouble...it seems detrimental that we start creating intentional, PLACE-BASED rewilding cultures.
And then just a few sentences later, in the same paragraph:
But I want a sustainable, rewilding culture right here in Portland OR. I want them all over the planet.
I can't for the life of me understand this apparent contradiction. Why on earth would you set out to intentionally do something that you state is detrimental to the establishment of rewilding cultural groups?
I'd like to know how you came to those observations. Use specific examples please.
As already mentioned, through personal information provided on this site and links to others. I'm not going to take the time to provide examples as this information is equally available to you as it was/is to me. I'm also thinking that the responses in this thread add credibility to my observations. I don't think it's a big deal really. The current demographics are only useful in predicting future demographics if all else stays the same; it doesn't have to be a static thing. However, I think demographics can speak to an underlying (probably subconscious) agenda. For example, how are you actively inviting, welcoming and responding to folks who do not fit the current demographic? I'm not looking for an answer there as much as I'm throwing it out for reflection.
This website has a theme; creating a culture that will last beyond civilization. I'd like to meet folks who believe in following the theme.
OK, maybe it's just a languaging thing but that word "following" has always been problematic for me. I don't follow themes, dogma, or strange men home (anymore, heh). I'm interested in being a co-creator of lived experiences and ideas shared in a mutually respectful and ever egalitarian fashion between human beings. I'm not a very good follower hence would make a very poor cult member which I think can easily be the demise of followers. I see merit in occasional chaos.
I also know that the sooner the crash happens, the softer it will crash, and therefore the better for all.
You can't "know" that. You can surmise, assume, presume, guess, envision, suppose, perhaps even predict although not with any certainty. It's unknowable. To assume to know what is "better for all" reveals a level of arrogance and a penchant for patronizing that I'm very uncomfortable with.
Death means violence.
I disagree. Death means change. Might be a great topic for a new thread.
If you understand that these things are killing the planet and do not have a desire for them to end, I hardly doubt you have an abiding love for the earth or anything that lives here.
Thank-you for "hardly doubting" my love. It's real. It's my spirit. :)
There are a few other things I’ve had difficulty understanding. Maybe I can seek clarity on this thread:
You spoke thus: “Our elders have long died.” No they haven’t. They are all around us. They are only made invisible by our lack of attention to them. Pay attention and be open to feeling that tap on your shoulder or that whisper in your ear or that nudge in your spirit. Or even to that post…stranger things have happened hehe. What makes you think all the elders and olders are dead?
And this: “Animism, the religion practiced by all indigenous peoples,–” This is false. There are thousand of indigenous persons who are practicing other religions and ways of walking and living their spirituality. This is a stereotype and is simply not true. What would make you think there is a single religion practiced by all indigenous people?
Similarly, you use the term “the indigenous lifestyle” which implies a similarity between peoples and nations that simply does not exist. There is no “indigenous lifestyle.” Just taking North American indigenous persons by way of example, there are over 600 First Nations communities in Canada and over 500 federally recognized tribes in the U.S. To assume some degree of similarity is as short-sighted as believing in gross similarities between Italians and Chinese. Sharing a landbase (either in North America or in Eurasia) certainly does not imply homogeneity of cultural mores, language, traditions or anything else that I can think of.
You stated:
We have to use cultural mentoring techniques to show people the world through native eyes. That’s what I have been doing for 10 years now…
OK, I felt pretty angry when I read that. How can anyone show anyone else something they have absolutely no experience with? Even if you were native yourself, you could not show anyone the world through your eyes in a truly meaningful fashion. One would need to experience the oppression of being a visible minority, which you could not. One would need to have first-hand experience with being over-represented in the prison system, and in the social realities of poverty, diabetes, STDs and AIDS, FAS/FAE, alcoholism, unemployment, and non-consenting sterilization. One would need to have experienced systemic racism through cultural genocide, forced assimilation, forced removal of children held in residential schools, imprisonment for practicing your spirituality and speaking your language. I could go on for sure, but please…do not think for one more moment that you can show the world through native eyes. You cannot. And I would invite you to rethink what you have been doing for the last 10 years.
I grow so weary of reading culturally appropriated terms when folks are seeking to self-define. I would love to see a rewilding language that is completely devoid of such culturally specific terms as medicine woman/man, abo, shaman, etc. I feel we are being short-sighted at best, and disrespectful at worst, to borrow terms from other cultures when we are simply inadequate to have even a beginning understanding of the depth of wisdom, dedication and life-long pursuit some of these words entail. If a person wants to be “abo” then I’d suggest going to live on a reservation to begin to understand the socio-political ramifications of doing so. It would at least be a more honest beginning.
I’ve rambled and raved. I’ve much more to say, and probably will do so when time and energy permit. Peter, again I want to say that I’m not picking on you. There is much good in what you say, in what you believe in, and what you are prepared to stand up for. And I applaud you for that and wish to support you in many of your goals and much of your ideology. But I need to understand more, and have a desire to be understood myself. Perhaps then we can co-create a wider path where many can walk side by side.
How can anyone show anyone else something they have absolutely no experience with?
Three words: Show and tell. Eva play dat in preschool ???
For people to believe in the truth behind flying crafts the law of aerodynamics changed minds! Without it we wouldn’t have made it to the moon! People didn’t know about it until they STARTED to get to know about it by exposure lil or a lot at a time, one just must have the willingness or a level of openness to learn something new. U game?
“Animism, the religion practiced by all indigenous peoples”
So far true, as far as my frame of reference provides. They say before takers taint their believes. Don’t take my advice read Daniel Quinn’s trilogy or should I say what you would put, this: As already mentioned, through personal information provided on this site and links to others. I’m not going to take the time to provide examples as this information is equally available to you as it was/is to me.
No really read the trilogy.
“This is false”
Yeah, sure, if you and only u say so. Give us something!
DEATH MEANS DEATH. FUCK! : ;D
“following”
Bites!?
I used used to go that route. Now I just use it, follow me?
On following:
Four words: Follower leader, leader follower. Following leading, leading following. Whateva makes ya cleva! :
One word:
Rewild
“How did you get in my head”
What!? I didn’t get in anyone’s head. SHIT! >:(
[calming down]
“I neglected to add “male” to what I observed as the predominant demographic, so I will now.”
Before I forget to add: People with attitudes similar to yours frighten the other sex away or into hiding…I observe.
[calming up]
“I don’t have conversations like this (the one your comment inspires) anymore”
Perhaps I should too. :-\ I do see a lot of b-english usage to get caught up on into deep @(#*$.
[calming down]
I love you all…REWILDers!
MOD: Oopsee! I assumed. Let me clarify, incase you havn’t read the trilogy, I suggest. My apologies.
[quote=“Ann Onimus, post:14, topic:436”][quote]I see a very particular demographic represented here: white, urban, privileged, youthful, amerikan and idealistic.
Where did you get that? [/quote]
From reading profiles, blogs, on myspace and personal websites. It was pretty easy, really. I neglected to add “male” to what I observed as the predominant demographic, so I will now. :)[/quote]
yeah, this whole “male” thing keeps popping up…
interestingly, everytime some guy comes on and says “hey where are all the women?” we all get a strong reminder (from women) that we just need to pay attention and we’ll find them…
[quote=“Ann Onimus, post:14, topic:436”][quote]I’m categorically not really any of those things.
I think the majority of people here would feel the same way as you.
[/quote]
Really? To me it’s pretty self-evident to the contrary but maybe some facts elude me.[/quote]
i’d say the majority are white, maybe even male (i’m pretty hesitant to say that tho’), prolly the majority are youthful, but there’s a fair few in middle age and the occasional elder, some of us have experienced priviledge, but many have less than priviledged backgrounds (not necessarily so underpriviledge that they’ve gone thru the tragedies you list below, but…), there’s absolutely some people in urban settings (incld myself at the moment), but there’s also some people who aren’t.
shrug, like i said, i wouldn’t say it’s as inclusive as i’d like, but think taking it to exclusive is a misinterpretation.
[quote=“Ann Onimus, post:14, topic:436”]In trying for a more gentle entry as opposed to hurling a lot of questions out, I’ve not done so yet. This one has been bugging me:
And then just a few sentences later, in the same paragraph:
I can’t for the life of me understand this apparent contradiction. Why on earth would you set out to intentionally do something that you state is detrimental to the establishment of rewilding cultural groups?[/quote]
i think you caught you typo, that or a brain fart
good question. i haven’t really thought about it much. i haven’t so much been “targeting” any specific demographic, just whoever seems interested.
OK, maybe it’s just a languaging thing but that word “following” has always been problematic for me. I don’t follow themes, dogma, or strange men home (anymore, heh). I’m interested in being a co-creator of lived experiences and ideas shared in a mutually respectful and ever egalitarian fashion between human beings. I’m not a very good follower hence would make a very poor cult member which I think can easily be the demise of followers. I see merit in occasional chaos.[/quote]
eh, i think maybe you’re taking “following” in a direction US didn’t mean. could be wrong tho’. but “mutually respectful and ever egalitarian” is generally considered a good thing here.
You can’t “know” that. You can surmise, assume, presume, guess, envision, suppose, perhaps even predict although not with any certainty. It’s unknowable. To assume to know what is “better for all” reveals a level of arrogance and a penchant for patronizing that I’m very uncomfortable with.[/quote]
it’s a little dicey, i suppose, but there a pretty strong case can be made as long as we’re looking at things at the level of ecosystems.
I disagree. Death means change. Might be a great topic for a new thread.[/quote]
an excellent topic for a new thread! glad you thought of it!
[quote=“Ann Onimus, post:14, topic:436”]There are a few other things I’ve had difficulty understanding. Maybe I can seek clarity on this thread:
You spoke thus: “Our elders have long died.” No they haven’t. They are all around us. They are only made invisible by our lack of attention to them. Pay attention and be open to feeling that tap on your shoulder or that whisper in your ear or that nudge in your spirit. Or even to that post…stranger things have happened hehe. What makes you think all the elders and olders are dead?[/quote]
in a sense, you’re correct, but in another sense, US is equally correct. a lot of people here have had elders that have really failed to pass on much wisdom or knowledge. as for listening to spirits in the way you suggest, i used to think anyone could do it, now i’m much less certain. but, even if you can do it, that doesn’t mean you immediately recognize that you’re dealing w/ an elder. i think there’s quite a bit of room for exploration of this. another new thread?
it’s true, indigenous cultures have the greatest diversity of any cultures on earth. and, certainly, that means they have very different religious beliefs. but, there really is a thread of commonality to them, just as there is a thread of commonality between chinese culture & italian culture. animism describes an approach to religion (and the world) rather than the religion itself, imho, but anthropologists use it as the religion, so that’s generally how it’s used here. this would probably be a good conversation to have w/ jason godesky.
yeah, as you said, this is very similar to the animism issue (and that’s no coincidence!). i think this is a very valid point, and a huge miscommunication on our part. we recognize that “indigenous lifestyle” is going to vary (greatly!) from culture to culture (and landbase/bioregion to landbase/bioregion), but i don’t think we always communicate that well.
i would love to see such a language as well. no disrepect is intended, in fact, a great deal of respect is intended. we believe that your landbase/bioregion has a huge impact on how a culture should behave. so we tend to look at cultures that live in our area prior to “civilization” (something of an error in that statement, but i’d rather not follow that tangent atm) for an idea of what worked for them; sometimes (esp in the case of physical skills) we’ll try to duplicate it as closely as possible, whereas for more cultural ideas/tools/etc we’re more likely to try and find ways to “bridge the gap” so to speak between the culture we’ve been raised in and the bioregion we live in. there have been several such syncretic attempts, and all take pains to avoid cultural appropriation as much as possible.
i can see that you feel strongly about this, and, hell, i think that’s a good thing, but i don’t really agree. i don’t have any intention of “becoming shawnee/shawano”, but i’m more than willing (interested even) of learning about/listening to them and their history, their stories, their culture. i think that there’s valuable knowledge and wisdom there that will help me on my path towards becoming truly native to the land i live in.
truly, i hope you do, i think you’ve got some good insights, tho’ i don’t think that our opinions are as different from your own as you seem to think. perhaps i’m wrong, wouldn’t be the first time (nor the last).
I feel curious as to how you think the demographic of usership got here? I get the feeling that you imagine a bunch of clean cut white boys on the cusp between suburbia and the city putting down their x-box controllers for a moment to whip out their blackberries and text their equally white bread possie about the bitchin new site where you can get your primitive skills on.
This site has grown organically out of a few different communities where the only “targeting” that happened came from people seeing the same kind of interest in each other. IshCon and Anthropik fed a lot of this community before this site got started. So I think a better question to ask might go like this: “Why do so many young, privileged, urban, white boys dig this rewilidng stuff?”
The only real marketing I have ever done for this site (other than blabbing about it via myspace and my blog) involved mentioning it on other peoples blogs whom I had discovered and thought they might enjoy the kind of conversations we have here. People like Giulianna Lamana (self proclaimed prissy primitivist [to the superlative degree]) and HoboStripper. I don’t know how old or proviliged you could consider either of these girls. I think both of them would consider themselves Caucasian. Giuli lives in the city, and HS lives in a van.
I really don’t understand how you expect that anyone does “targeting” here.
Let me tell you how I came here, in order to answer the question I suggest that you should have asked:
Ever since I read Daniel Quinn and realized why I hate my civilized life, I started looking for other people to bond with over these issues. I found IshCon once, but didn’t feel comfortable there and moved on to follow my other interests like herbology. But occasionally, I would hop on the internet and do a search for things like “daniel quinn” and “anti-civilization” to see what popped up. I did that most recently back in January, and I discovered Anthropik and Urban Scout. I really connected with the kind of things they discussed, and I felt inspired by the fact that they had formulated plans for this thing they called “rewilding”.
Wow, I thought, people have started trying to undomesticate themselves. I kept reading and discovered more blogs. Some came across more overtly than others with the whole anti-civ thing. They all seemed to know each other (from IshCon, I suppose) and posted on each others’ blogs. I found myself joining in their conversations (mostly in the comments on their blogs) and discovered that I had something to say. I felt inspired by the journeys of undomestication I read about, and I decided to open shop for myself, writing about my own experiments in trying learn lost skills.
After not much time had passed, Urban Scout sent me an email asking about my skills with websites and hinting that he wanted to start a new site for people to get together and share these kinds of ideas. A few days later, he did just that. I assume that a lot of other people that US had already developed a relationship with got similar emails about this new site, as several of them had already joined by the time I got here and created my account.
How we grew from there, I can’t really answer. I know that US already had a community of (god forbid) like-minded people from similar walks of life doing rewilding in Portland. I know that some of the pre-rewild.info-blog-friendship community advertised this site on their blogs, as did I. We got a boost in attention when Anthropik dissolved their forums and incorporated their site with ours. I bet some people find us through search engines. But really, I would venture that the majority of the growth has happened very rhizomatically. One connection simply leading to another. Please forgive us if we happen to connect with people of similar backgrounds, if our friendships that have grown this site do not meet the diversity requirements you seem to measure us by.
But please do not assume any sort of exclusivity on our parts for happening to have descended from ancestors originating in the Caucus mountains. By the way, as a speaker of the English language, I claim absolute cultural appropriateness in using the term “abo” to describe my intentions for myself, as the word comes from the language I speak to describe a way of life that I aspire toward.
I prefer the term “Native”, not in the sense that it describes the indeginous culture of north america, but in the sense that it means to belong to the land you live on. My blood and my culture are “native” to scandinavia, but I’d like my children’s culture to be “native” to here.
;D