The first posts I read here when I came to this forum had a lot to do with calling bullshit on some things that other people are doing that I consider to be very worthwhile. So I guess I have been doing the same for you folks.
Thank you for admitting that.
"we want to remove the illusion of separation between humanity and the rest of creation."
I believe that this is not an intellectual process. I don't think it could be done that way. It is and experience not an idea.
It definitely needs to be experienced. But for some ā maybe lots ā of folks, it can begin as an idea. Our understanding of how we relate to the world is just that: an understanding ā something done with the brain. You can change that understanding with an intellectual conversation or you can thrust someone into a life situation where they can experience it first-hand. I donāt have the power to literally push anyone out of their current life situation, but we can confab on what that means to us, and someone (just like I did) can get something out of that conversation.
[quote=āheyvictor, post:10, topic:436ā]āwe want to remove the illusion of separation between humanity and the rest of creation.ā
I believe that this is not an intellectual process. I donāt think it could be done that way. It is and experience not an idea.[/quote]
i guess where youāre losing me on this is: say someone has a broken leg. do i take his crutch away? or do i help them while theyāre healing?
thereās this idea that humans are particularly āspecialā. that weāre somehow free from the contraints that apply to other animals. recogizing that this is utterly false is a basis of what weāre doing here, and, even thoā, feeling that as more than just an intellectual idea is important, i think youāll generally find that most people donāt pay it any mind, so talking about it on an intellectual level is one way to get started towards that fuller experience.
so, iām confused about why you donāt see the value. no one here is saying that thatās where you stop. it might be where you start, it might be an occasional visit, but a purely intellectual experience isnāt where we intend to stop, and very few (if any) of us stop there.
okay, fair enough. some of the posts when you first arrived were half-vents about how the cultural aspects of what indigenous people did often donāt get enough play. iām not sure exactly which specific things youāre referring to but, believe it or not, primitive skills are highly valued here, as are the people who practice them.
I want to address this tangent by saying my waddling through the process of enlightenment, that is, re-membering with the community of life (the Way), began with a book that my intellect read out loud for my whole being to absorb. Trying to make the intellect go away is like trying to make the pig fly. Sure, you can put it into a shiny airplane, but that airplane is only throwing itself at the ground and missing.
Where am I?
One foot in, one foot out. one hemisphere on, one hemisphere off. Itās okay, the disco ball doesnāt turn forever.
Who are you?
I am he-who-plays-with-fire(Tony Bill, TonyZ, TeeZee, TonyZed, MC Z, Mr.Z, Mr. Know-It-Allā¦), who are you?
How did you get in my head?
Because the truth lives in the eternal self; Our access to the eternal self is only granted to those who stop the whirring of the machines long enough to listen.
I am more open than you know to attracting new types of people, who do you have in mind? Other than yourself, are you talking about your friends? A standing cohesive group that only needs experience to put thoughts to practice? Iāve been navigating these click-infested for years now, who have you found?
civilization (does not equal) humanity. The idea of humanity itself is a lie of civilization; itās a concept that all people are somehow unite, special, parallel. But anthropology tells a different story. There are genetic paths that lead back to the same trail, but if there āisā a common destiny, it would have to be to diversify, to get away form this concept of humanism and humanity.
People, the people around us, are our band, one day, these bands may form clans, one day, these clans may form tribes, or something different.
I think we are all here to find people near us reaby to exist in a new way.
Thanks for all the replies. Thereās a lot to go through here and Iām not sure how best to respond without omitting some. Thanks especially to those who went to the effort to just keep it real. Bullshit is boring.
Urban Scout, I appreciate what you wrote. Iāll respond to some of your points but probably cannot respond in depth to them all. I hope it doesnāt seem like Iām picking on you. You were the first to respond so Iāll do my best to likewise respond.
[i]I see a very particular demographic represented here: white, urban, privileged, youthful, amerikan and idealistic.[/i]
Where did you get that?
From reading profiles, blogs, on myspace and personal websites. It was pretty easy, really. I neglected to add "male" to what I observed as the predominant demographic, so I will now. :)
[i]I'm categorically not really any of those things.[/i]
I think the majority of people here would feel the same way as you.
Really? To me it's pretty self-evident to the contrary but maybe some facts elude me.
Since the language stands on a foundation of philosophy, I encourage you to ask for specifics about each topic as it arises. Feel free to ask questions about what you see as contradictions.
I will. In trying for a more gentle entry as opposed to hurling a lot of questions out, I've not done so yet. This one has been bugging me:
Because I believe we're headed for serious trouble...it seems detrimental that we start creating intentional, PLACE-BASED rewilding cultures.
And then just a few sentences later, in the same paragraph:
But I want a sustainable, rewilding culture right here in Portland OR. I want them all over the planet.
I can't for the life of me understand this apparent contradiction. Why on earth would you set out to intentionally do something that you state is detrimental to the establishment of rewilding cultural groups?
I'd like to know how you came to those observations. Use specific examples please.
As already mentioned, through personal information provided on this site and links to others. I'm not going to take the time to provide examples as this information is equally available to you as it was/is to me. I'm also thinking that the responses in this thread add credibility to my observations. I don't think it's a big deal really. The current demographics are only useful in predicting future demographics if all else stays the same; it doesn't have to be a static thing. However, I think demographics can speak to an underlying (probably subconscious) agenda. For example, how are you actively inviting, welcoming and responding to folks who do not fit the current demographic? I'm not looking for an answer there as much as I'm throwing it out for reflection.
This website has a theme; creating a culture that will last beyond civilization. I'd like to meet folks who believe in following the theme.
OK, maybe it's just a languaging thing but that word "following" has always been problematic for me. I don't follow themes, dogma, or strange men home (anymore, heh). I'm interested in being a co-creator of lived experiences and ideas shared in a mutually respectful and ever egalitarian fashion between human beings. I'm not a very good follower hence would make a very poor cult member which I think can easily be the demise of followers. I see merit in occasional chaos.
I also know that the sooner the crash happens, the softer it will crash, and therefore the better for all.
You can't "know" that. You can surmise, assume, presume, guess, envision, suppose, perhaps even predict although not with any certainty. It's unknowable. To assume to know what is "better for all" reveals a level of arrogance and a penchant for patronizing that I'm very uncomfortable with.
Death means violence.
I disagree. Death means change. Might be a great topic for a new thread.
If you understand that these things are killing the planet and do not have a desire for them to end, I hardly doubt you have an abiding love for the earth or anything that lives here.
Thank-you for "hardly doubting" my love. It's real. It's my spirit. :)
There are a few other things Iāve had difficulty understanding. Maybe I can seek clarity on this thread:
You spoke thus: āOur elders have long died.ā No they havenĆĀ¢Ć¢āĀ¬Ć¢āĀ¢t. They are all around us. They are only made invisible by our lack of attention to them. Pay attention and be open to feeling that tap on your shoulder or that whisper in your ear or that nudge in your spirit. Or even to that postā¦stranger things have happened hehe. What makes you think all the elders and olders are dead?
And this: āAnimism, the religion practiced by all indigenous peoples,āā This is false. There are thousand of indigenous persons who are practicing other religions and ways of walking and living their spirituality. This is a stereotype and is simply not true. What would make you think there is a single religion practiced by all indigenous people?
Similarly, you use the term āthe indigenous lifestyleā which implies a similarity between peoples and nations that simply does not exist. There is no āindigenous lifestyle.ā Just taking North American indigenous persons by way of example, there are over 600 First Nations communities in Canada and over 500 federally recognized tribes in the U.S. To assume some degree of similarity is as short-sighted as believing in gross similarities between Italians and Chinese. Sharing a landbase (either in North America or in Eurasia) certainly does not imply homogeneity of cultural mores, language, traditions or anything else that I can think of.
You stated:
We have to use cultural mentoring techniques to show people the world through native eyes. ThatĆĀ¢Ć¢āĀ¬Ć¢āĀ¢s what I have been doing for 10 years nowā¦
OK, I felt pretty angry when I read that. How can anyone show anyone else something they have absolutely no experience with? Even if you were native yourself, you could not show anyone the world through your eyes in a truly meaningful fashion. One would need to experience the oppression of being a visible minority, which you could not. One would need to have first-hand experience with being over-represented in the prison system, and in the social realities of poverty, diabetes, STDs and AIDS, FAS/FAE, alcoholism, unemployment, and non-consenting sterilization. One would need to have experienced systemic racism through cultural genocide, forced assimilation, forced removal of children held in residential schools, imprisonment for practicing your spirituality and speaking your language. I could go on for sure, but pleaseā¦do not think for one more moment that you can show the world through native eyes. You cannot. And I would invite you to rethink what you have been doing for the last 10 years.
I grow so weary of reading culturally appropriated terms when folks are seeking to self-define. I would love to see a rewilding language that is completely devoid of such culturally specific terms as medicine woman/man, abo, shaman, etc. I feel we are being short-sighted at best, and disrespectful at worst, to borrow terms from other cultures when we are simply inadequate to have even a beginning understanding of the depth of wisdom, dedication and life-long pursuit some of these words entail. If a person wants to be āaboā then Iād suggest going to live on a reservation to begin to understand the socio-political ramifications of doing so. It would at least be a more honest beginning.
Iāve rambled and raved. Iāve much more to say, and probably will do so when time and energy permit. Peter, again I want to say that Iām not picking on you. There is much good in what you say, in what you believe in, and what you are prepared to stand up for. And I applaud you for that and wish to support you in many of your goals and much of your ideology. But I need to understand more, and have a desire to be understood myself. Perhaps then we can co-create a wider path where many can walk side by side.
How can anyone show anyone else something they have absolutely no experience with?
Three words: Show and tell. Eva play dat in preschool ???
For people to believe in the truth behind flying crafts the law of aerodynamics changed minds! Without it we wouldnāt have made it to the moon! People didnāt know about it until they STARTED to get to know about it by exposure lil or a lot at a time, one just must have the willingness or a level of openness to learn something new. U game?
āAnimism, the religion practiced by all indigenous peoplesā
So far true, as far as my frame of reference provides. They say before takers taint their believes. Donāt take my advice read Daniel Quinnās trilogy or should I say what you would put, this: As already mentioned, through personal information provided on this site and links to others. Iām not going to take the time to provide examples as this information is equally available to you as it was/is to me.
No really read the trilogy.
āThis is falseā
Yeah, sure, if you and only u say so. Give us something!
DEATH MEANS DEATH. FUCK! : ;D
āfollowingā
Bites!?
I used used to go that route. Now I just use it, follow me?
On following:
Four words: Follower leader, leader follower. Following leading, leading following. Whateva makes ya cleva! :
One word:
Rewild
āHow did you get in my headā
What!? I didnāt get in anyoneās head. SHIT! >:(
[calming down]
āI neglected to add āmaleā to what I observed as the predominant demographic, so I will now.ā
Before I forget to add: People with attitudes similar to yours frighten the other sex away or into hidingā¦I observe.
[calming up]
āI donāt have conversations like this (the one your comment inspires) anymoreā
Perhaps I should too. :-\ I do see a lot of b-english usage to get caught up on into deep @(#*$.
[calming down]
I love you allā¦REWILDers!
MOD: Oopsee! I assumed. Let me clarify, incase you havnāt read the trilogy, I suggest. My apologies.
[quote=āAnn Onimus, post:14, topic:436ā][quote]I see a very particular demographic represented here: white, urban, privileged, youthful, amerikan and idealistic.
Where did you get that? [/quote]
From reading profiles, blogs, on myspace and personal websites. It was pretty easy, really. I neglected to add āmaleā to what I observed as the predominant demographic, so I will now. :)[/quote]
yeah, this whole āmaleā thing keeps popping upā¦
interestingly, everytime some guy comes on and says āhey where are all the women?ā we all get a strong reminder (from women) that we just need to pay attention and weāll find themā¦
[quote=āAnn Onimus, post:14, topic:436ā][quote]Iām categorically not really any of those things.
I think the majority of people here would feel the same way as you.
[/quote]
Really? To me itās pretty self-evident to the contrary but maybe some facts elude me.[/quote]
iād say the majority are white, maybe even male (iām pretty hesitant to say that thoā), prolly the majority are youthful, but thereās a fair few in middle age and the occasional elder, some of us have experienced priviledge, but many have less than priviledged backgrounds (not necessarily so underpriviledge that theyāve gone thru the tragedies you list below, butā¦), thereās absolutely some people in urban settings (incld myself at the moment), but thereās also some people who arenāt.
shrug, like i said, i wouldnāt say itās as inclusive as iād like, but think taking it to exclusive is a misinterpretation.
[quote=āAnn Onimus, post:14, topic:436ā]In trying for a more gentle entry as opposed to hurling a lot of questions out, Iāve not done so yet. This one has been bugging me:
And then just a few sentences later, in the same paragraph:
I canāt for the life of me understand this apparent contradiction. Why on earth would you set out to intentionally do something that you state is detrimental to the establishment of rewilding cultural groups?[/quote]
i think you caught you typo, that or a brain fart
good question. i havenāt really thought about it much. i havenāt so much been ātargetingā any specific demographic, just whoever seems interested.
OK, maybe itās just a languaging thing but that word āfollowingā has always been problematic for me. I donāt follow themes, dogma, or strange men home (anymore, heh). Iām interested in being a co-creator of lived experiences and ideas shared in a mutually respectful and ever egalitarian fashion between human beings. Iām not a very good follower hence would make a very poor cult member which I think can easily be the demise of followers. I see merit in occasional chaos.[/quote]
eh, i think maybe youāre taking āfollowingā in a direction US didnāt mean. could be wrong thoā. but āmutually respectful and ever egalitarianā is generally considered a good thing here.
You canāt āknowā that. You can surmise, assume, presume, guess, envision, suppose, perhaps even predict although not with any certainty. Itās unknowable. To assume to know what is ābetter for allā reveals a level of arrogance and a penchant for patronizing that Iām very uncomfortable with.[/quote]
itās a little dicey, i suppose, but there a pretty strong case can be made as long as weāre looking at things at the level of ecosystems.
I disagree. Death means change. Might be a great topic for a new thread.[/quote]
an excellent topic for a new thread! glad you thought of it!
[quote=āAnn Onimus, post:14, topic:436ā]There are a few other things Iāve had difficulty understanding. Maybe I can seek clarity on this thread:
You spoke thus: āOur elders have long died.ā No they havenĆĀ¢Ć¢āĀ¬Ć¢āĀ¢t. They are all around us. They are only made invisible by our lack of attention to them. Pay attention and be open to feeling that tap on your shoulder or that whisper in your ear or that nudge in your spirit. Or even to that postā¦stranger things have happened hehe. What makes you think all the elders and olders are dead?[/quote]
in a sense, youāre correct, but in another sense, US is equally correct. a lot of people here have had elders that have really failed to pass on much wisdom or knowledge. as for listening to spirits in the way you suggest, i used to think anyone could do it, now iām much less certain. but, even if you can do it, that doesnāt mean you immediately recognize that youāre dealing w/ an elder. i think thereās quite a bit of room for exploration of this. another new thread?
itās true, indigenous cultures have the greatest diversity of any cultures on earth. and, certainly, that means they have very different religious beliefs. but, there really is a thread of commonality to them, just as there is a thread of commonality between chinese culture & italian culture. animism describes an approach to religion (and the world) rather than the religion itself, imho, but anthropologists use it as the religion, so thatās generally how itās used here. this would probably be a good conversation to have w/ jason godesky.
yeah, as you said, this is very similar to the animism issue (and thatās no coincidence!). i think this is a very valid point, and a huge miscommunication on our part. we recognize that āindigenous lifestyleā is going to vary (greatly!) from culture to culture (and landbase/bioregion to landbase/bioregion), but i donāt think we always communicate that well.
i would love to see such a language as well. no disrepect is intended, in fact, a great deal of respect is intended. we believe that your landbase/bioregion has a huge impact on how a culture should behave. so we tend to look at cultures that live in our area prior to ācivilizationā (something of an error in that statement, but iād rather not follow that tangent atm) for an idea of what worked for them; sometimes (esp in the case of physical skills) weāll try to duplicate it as closely as possible, whereas for more cultural ideas/tools/etc weāre more likely to try and find ways to ābridge the gapā so to speak between the culture weāve been raised in and the bioregion we live in. there have been several such syncretic attempts, and all take pains to avoid cultural appropriation as much as possible.
i can see that you feel strongly about this, and, hell, i think thatās a good thing, but i donāt really agree. i donāt have any intention of ābecoming shawnee/shawanoā, but iām more than willing (interested even) of learning about/listening to them and their history, their stories, their culture. i think that thereās valuable knowledge and wisdom there that will help me on my path towards becoming truly native to the land i live in.
truly, i hope you do, i think youāve got some good insights, thoā i donāt think that our opinions are as different from your own as you seem to think. perhaps iām wrong, wouldnāt be the first time (nor the last).
I feel curious as to how you think the demographic of usership got here? I get the feeling that you imagine a bunch of clean cut white boys on the cusp between suburbia and the city putting down their x-box controllers for a moment to whip out their blackberries and text their equally white bread possie about the bitchin new site where you can get your primitive skills on.
This site has grown organically out of a few different communities where the only ātargetingā that happened came from people seeing the same kind of interest in each other. IshCon and Anthropik fed a lot of this community before this site got started. So I think a better question to ask might go like this: āWhy do so many young, privileged, urban, white boys dig this rewilidng stuff?ā
The only real marketing I have ever done for this site (other than blabbing about it via myspace and my blog) involved mentioning it on other peoples blogs whom I had discovered and thought they might enjoy the kind of conversations we have here. People like Giulianna Lamana (self proclaimed prissy primitivist [to the superlative degree]) and HoboStripper. I donāt know how old or proviliged you could consider either of these girls. I think both of them would consider themselves Caucasian. Giuli lives in the city, and HS lives in a van.
I really donāt understand how you expect that anyone does ātargetingā here.
Let me tell you how I came here, in order to answer the question I suggest that you should have asked:
Ever since I read Daniel Quinn and realized why I hate my civilized life, I started looking for other people to bond with over these issues. I found IshCon once, but didnāt feel comfortable there and moved on to follow my other interests like herbology. But occasionally, I would hop on the internet and do a search for things like ādaniel quinnā and āanti-civilizationā to see what popped up. I did that most recently back in January, and I discovered Anthropik and Urban Scout. I really connected with the kind of things they discussed, and I felt inspired by the fact that they had formulated plans for this thing they called ārewildingā.
Wow, I thought, people have started trying to undomesticate themselves. I kept reading and discovered more blogs. Some came across more overtly than others with the whole anti-civ thing. They all seemed to know each other (from IshCon, I suppose) and posted on each othersā blogs. I found myself joining in their conversations (mostly in the comments on their blogs) and discovered that I had something to say. I felt inspired by the journeys of undomestication I read about, and I decided to open shop for myself, writing about my own experiments in trying learn lost skills.
After not much time had passed, Urban Scout sent me an email asking about my skills with websites and hinting that he wanted to start a new site for people to get together and share these kinds of ideas. A few days later, he did just that. I assume that a lot of other people that US had already developed a relationship with got similar emails about this new site, as several of them had already joined by the time I got here and created my account.
How we grew from there, I canāt really answer. I know that US already had a community of (god forbid) like-minded people from similar walks of life doing rewilding in Portland. I know that some of the pre-rewild.info-blog-friendship community advertised this site on their blogs, as did I. We got a boost in attention when Anthropik dissolved their forums and incorporated their site with ours. I bet some people find us through search engines. But really, I would venture that the majority of the growth has happened very rhizomatically. One connection simply leading to another. Please forgive us if we happen to connect with people of similar backgrounds, if our friendships that have grown this site do not meet the diversity requirements you seem to measure us by.
But please do not assume any sort of exclusivity on our parts for happening to have descended from ancestors originating in the Caucus mountains. By the way, as a speaker of the English language, I claim absolute cultural appropriateness in using the term āaboā to describe my intentions for myself, as the word comes from the language I speak to describe a way of life that I aspire toward.
I prefer the term āNativeā, not in the sense that it describes the indeginous culture of north america, but in the sense that it means to belong to the land you live on. My blood and my culture are ānativeā to scandinavia, but Iād like my childrenās culture to be ānativeā to here.
Hey all. First off, thanks for some thoughtful and respectful responses. Iām continuing to learn how to communicate without resorting to sarcasm and rudeness. Itās hard sometimes, and requires self-discipline that Iām sometimes lacking but nevertheless working on. I appreciate the efforts towards kindness and mutual respect. Communicating from the heart means far more to me than communicating from the head.
I realize after more reading thatās itās just probably not a very good fit right now for me to be here. We have similar intrinsic and extrinsic goals in many ways, but I think we are too disparate in our plans on how to get there. When I read and find more things that I disagree with than agree with, Iām up against a decision to either become a forum antagonist or just pick myself up and move on. I think the latter option is best for now.
I hope to see you around and stop in to say hi once in awhile. Ya never know when and how we will need each other in the future.
I think that Iāll still get email notification for PMs. You are welcome to give me a shout if you think I might be able to help out with something.
Take care, practice kindness and compassion to yourself, others and your environment.
I meant to mention too that for those of you in the Portland area who are interested in learning more about respecting Elders, indigenous wisdom and so forth, an option is the Earth and Spirit Council. http://www.earthandspirit.org/NaturalWay/nat_way.html
Iāve never been there so donāt have the benefit of first-hand experience, but the founders are a part of my extended family.
[quote=āAnnā]I meant to mention too that for those of you in the Portland area who are interested in learning more about respecting Elders, indigenous wisdom and so forth, an option is the Earth and Spirit Council. http://www.earthandspirit.org/NaturalWay/nat_way.html[/quote]
Awesome! Thanks for plugging that Ann.
[quote=āUrban Scout, post:23, topic:436ā]Ann,
I agree that this site doesnāt sound like a good fit.
Also, our administrator Willem is on the board of the Natural Way committee. I also highly recommend it for others who live in Portland.[/quote]
I canāt deny that. In a couple weeks some hard work will come to fruition - Iāll finally get to bring an amazing Mohawk Elder and speaker, Tekaronianeken Jake Swamp, to town for the speaker series. If you havenāt looked into what heāll speak about, please check out my website http://www.mythic-cartography.org or the natural way site for more info.
I feel so excited!
Ann, as far as how well this site serves you, I agree that it doesnāt match what a lot of people need out of a forum like this. Inshallah our community will continue to grow and other folks with other more relevant priorities (for those other needs) will create more forums to serve the diverse interests of folks working on radical culture change.
Take care and good luck with your own work in community building!
I realize after more reading that's it's just probably not a very good fit right now for me to be here. We have similar intrinsic and extrinsic goals in many ways, but I think we are too disparate in our plans on how to get there. When I read and find more things that I disagree with than agree with, I'm up against a decision to either become a forum antagonist or just pick myself up and move on. I think the latter option is best for now.
I understand your perspective, and I certainly wouldnāt want to encourage you to do something you donāt want to do. But I, for one, really appreciate a good counter argument now and again. I really looked forward to seeing what you had to say regarding specific threads here in the hopes that you might shed a kind of light on things that might help us see them better from your perspective.
I think that I'll still get email notification for PMs. You are welcome to give me a shout if you think I might be able to help out with something.
Ha. How would I know what to PM you about since I never really got to know what kind of thing you could help out with?
I hope to see you around and stop in to say hi once in awhile. Ya never know when and how we will need each other in the future.
I hope you keep your account open and just drop in whenever you get the urge. A lot of our users have a transient relationship with the boards, so seeing a name drop out of site for a while to pop back up later wonāt pose a problem.
Ok, I know this is hella late that Iām finding this thread, but Iām posting anyway.
I was surprised to read the negative responses to this post. I thought Ann Onimusās post was polite, thoughtful and accurate enough that a discussion and not a defense was warranted. Of course we all respond differently to criticism, the community that Iāve run with the past 11 years is really into tearing into our learned social habits to examine the crap that has been ingrained into how we see ourselves and the people around us.
I think it is good to keep in mind that our various privileges are not something to be ashamed of, but something to be aware of, so that we can try to avoid exploiting them in fucked up and subconscious ways. I have a lot of privilege in my life in spite of the fact that I grew up poor and am transsexual. Being perceived as white is a huge thing in America, it has profoundly affected my life.
I could talk about this for hours, but since this thread seems pretty dead, Iāll just let it lay. Had to throw in my two cents though.
] said,
;D