This is something I’ve been dwelling on for a while now, but with more focus in the last few weeks. I pose a question to the group that I’ve been asking myself for some time now.
Do you think they’re actually watching us? Do you think this forum is being read by some man in a suit deciding whether or not we’ve over stepped our boundaries? Do you think people like us who seek to bring down civilization are all being watched?
Cause I don’t. Call me crazy but I highly doubt they have the resources, or the people, or the time even, to watch every single person. Theres probably some key people who are being monitored rather closely. I’m sure ALF and ELF are both watched with a close eye, and groups like that are only so easy to monitor because they are on such a small scale. A full scale revolutionary front would be damn near impossible to monitor entirely.
I run into a rather large number of folks that aren’t anywhere near as active as members of those groups who really don’t fancy talking about certain things out loud. It seems like any good revolutionary is also a paranoid schizophrenic in constant fear that someone is out to get them, that someone clearly being the government. Not that I don’t think the government is calmly awaiting the moment we blow some shit up and they have a good reason to put us in jail. But IMHO I truly believe we’re living in a panopticon system. They set up all these systems to convince us that we may or may not be being watched at any moment. If you have not read about the panopticon then please do. It’s essentially a prison where the prisoners can be watched without having any idea whether or not they are being watched. This essentially forces the prisoners into a mental state where they have to CONSTANTLY act as though they are being watched because they have NO way of knowing if they are being watched. It’s wonderfully set up so that you don’t have to watch the prisoners, they will watch themselves for fear that you could be watching.
This is what I believe we live in. A system where we have no way of knowing when, where, or how, we are being watched. Most people live in constant fear of surveillance and seem to in response to this monitor themselves and their actions for fear that some guy with a gun will take them away. I personally believe this is simply a wise business move. They don’t have enough cameras, microphones, fiber optic cables, monitors, tape recorders, and most important PEOPLE to actually run a nationwide monitoring system on the scale that most seem to believe it to be. So instead they convince us that there is because that is cheaper and requires less time, energy, and people, while essentially accomplishing the same goal of imposing a feeling of omniscience on all of us. Sure they can use our cellphones as tracking devices, and even use them as microphones so listen in on our conversations, but that is not saying much, and I would doubt that they make use of these technologies as often as they’d like us to think.
It’s a perfect system really. Brainwash your slaves into a form of self-discipline that makes them keep themselves in line so you don’t have to. Convince them that at any moment they step out of line you MIGHT be watching and therefore should avoid it at all moments cause in the event that you see them do such a thing you will strike down with fury. It’s like making the slave enslave itself. Brilliant really. If you’re a fascist.
I also would like to say that for anything to really happen people need to stop living in fear of the government. If we want a revolution, if we want to bring down civilization, we’re going to have to ignore the watcher and move as if we had no knowledge of the possibility of being watched. We let them win every time we restrain ourselves for fear of being condemned. We need to move without fear as courageous beings.
The thing that any power fears the most is a group of people that fear nothing. What do you offer the man who is no longer afraid to die? If we move fearlessly but skillfully, we can move mountains together.
I don’t really have an opinion about whether or not they can or can’t, but I do think it’s a really good idea to assume that they can, and act accordingly. there is no reason to not be really fucking careful about who you talk to, what you do with your cellphone, and what you say on the internet. it is possible to accomplish amazing things while at the same time being really fucking careful. it does us all a lot more good for people to not get caught, and not get killed. unless somebody magically pulls off an action that causes civ to immediately crumble. But i don’t see that happening anytime soon.
I would agree with most of that. I don’t think we’re constantly being watched through technology, but I still feel watched in other ways.
I think the reason for this feeling has more to do with police and “do-gooder” citizens randomly seeing and reporting things to higher authorities. But even this is an overblown fear, because real police and investigators probably don’t function nearly as effeciently as the ones shown on television and movies.
I would worry most about the incriminating evidence that I leave through paper trails, credit card purchases, library rentals, and all other sorts of rentals that could be used against me in a trial, had I ever been arrested for something. I would also worry about the fact that I’m not very good at lying and I’m way too trusting, so I’d probably get caught doing something by my own stupidity. Some people just make better “criminals” than others.
I also would like to say that for anything to really happen people need to stop living in fear of the government. If we want a revolution, if we want to bring down civilization, we're going to have to ignore the watcher and move as if we had no knowledge of the possibility of being watched. We let them win every time we restrain ourselves for fear of being condemned. We need to move without fear as courageous beings. The thing that any power fears the most is a group of people that fear nothing. What do you offer the man who is no longer afraid to die? If we move fearlessly but skillfully, we can move mountains together.
I don’t know if we should “ignore” the watcher, because we still have to be smart, and that includes at least making some attempt not to be arrested (unless the arrest is well worth it). But I know that what you’re saying here is about courage, and I agree…but there’s something else that you implied here that I’ve been thinking about: organization.
At some point I’m going to get sick of just trying to think of my own individual tactics when I’m not physically surrounded by the like-minded. At some point, I think it will be beneficial for me to sacrifice some of my “civ” attachments, including relationships with friends and family, and go to work with other rewilding people.
But it’s not fear of the government that keeps me from doing this, it is the family, friend,and landbase attachment that I have. This seems to be the real “rewilding dillemma” from what I can tell. When Daniel Quinn spoke of his “tribal business” model, I think he underestimated how many of his readers would have a spiritual attachment to nature, and want to make the full leap into hunting/gathering/permaculture tribal life while doing more to bring down civilization. Similarily, I think we need to address the fact that many of us rewilding people naturally have strong ties with our family and landbase, which, while making us strong advocates for our cause, decreases our mobility and thus can make us less effective in action. Jensen says we can and should remain flexible, but I think some of us are reaching our breaking point.
Is this going to become a “movement”, or remain a spiritual and individual revolution until well into collapse? How effective can we be, acting as individuals who are so attached to the physical world? The insane culture with it’s guns, hierarchy, and focus on the afterlife seems much more willing to risk death to ensure its continuation than we would be in trying to stop it.
I guess my point is that those of us who want to create a movement have to be prepared for sacrifice of some sort, and we should take a deep look inside and figure out how much of our present lives we are prepared to change in order to contribute. This is what I’m trying to do everyday, and so far this is why I feel ineffective: too much thinking and learning, and not enough sharing and action.
Just the existence of this forum has been encouraging to me… the knowledge that there are others like you out there is already breaking down walls of fear that formerly stood in the way of action. I’ve been speaking up about my feelings in public more. I feel more prepared to leave the land and people that I love for the cause of a greater good. I am willing to learn the skills necessary to rewilding to contribute to a new culture.
I think a more important question to ask than “is fear of punishment keeping us from action?” is : Where do we go, who do we seek to support us, and what do we do once we’re together?
The military draft in the sixties, combined with drug use, were probably the main contributers to the counter-culture movement. What made that movement grow was also in large part its visibilty and attractiveness to the youth of the time. There were distinct gathering points like the Haight-Ashbury scene and Woodstock where people could easily join in the “movement.”
All this is to say that I’m sure that down the road, many of us will probably consider gathering in larger factions, for longer periods of time… and make detailed plans for what we will do once we are together. I know that’s partly what this forum is about, but I’m personally reaching my breaking point with what I can do in my physical location. I would like to feel the greater courage that comes with “strength in numbers.” I’m not going to wait forever for rewilders in my area to come out of the woodwork, so I’m willing to relocate to help get a tribe or activist movement off the ground.
So, in addition to the when/where questions, the fears that remain are: Will I ever see my friends/family again, and even if I do, will I be the same person? And, : Will I survive and form new and meaningful relationships with people of these new groups/ cultures? These are fears similar to a soldier going off to war, and these are the real fears I think we should examine.
The more I learn about the panopticon, and the more I think about realistically taking action, the more I believe that those taking action need to stay DEcentralized, unorganized - acting in small groups with limited knowledge of each other. A key reason why the government was able to decapitate the Black Panther party was because they were highly centralized, with a select group of leaders.
The other key reason was that they didn’t separate their above-ground and below-ground work, so they were very easy to infiltrate. I would suggest to anyone considering illegal actions to NOT do legal activist work at the same time, because that would make it more likely that one would show up on the government’s radar.
I also believe that this culture utilizes the panopticon system for social control, and that they don’t nearly have the ability to watch and control people that they try to convince people of. However, it totally makes sense - for the safety of all who resist - to maintain a strict security culture. Basically just acting smart, never ever talking about illegal actions one (or others) have done or are considering to do, etc… The less of us who end up in jail, the better.
Jessica
Does our rewilding need to include illegal actions? If I dont do illegal things there is nothing for these fools too watch anyway.I think they would get quite tired of watching me tracking in the woods or building debris shelter.
Does our rewilding need to include illegal actions?
It depends on how wild your rewilding takes you. It is illegal to be a hunter-gatherer. So if you’re planning on living as a hunter-gatherer, without paying for hunting permits, without using delegated hunting devises (guns/metal traps), etc. etc. Rewilding is illegal. That’s what makes rewilding different then simply tracking animals or building a debris hut. While those things relate to rewilding, you can learn them and practice them without the intention of living as a hunter-gatherer. The Navy Seals practice tracking and building debris huts. The context and intention is completely different. If you really plan to fully rewild, you will have to break civilizations laws at some point, and on a regular basis.
I doubt that the man is scouring the internet for people who are poaching or hunting illegally. I break laws all the time like jaywalking or speeding etc etc…I don’t feel like the Panopticon sees me doing these illegal actions.I don’t worry about my rewilding setting off any alarms because I am not out there blowing shit up or protesting in the streets. 
Ahh, but you admit that it does entail illegal activity. 
just kiddin.
So you haven’t read about HR 1955 then?
When I was referring to “gathering” in my post above, I was thinking more about building a succesful rewilding culture rather than gathering a group to physically take down civ. And I agree that “centralizing” and creating leaders could be a bad idea in trying to take down civ, but as a wishful rewilding person if I can’t be 100% opposed to organization of any sort. That’s why I referred to the loosely “organized” hippie movement with cultural “leaders” like Bob Dylan, Ken Kesey, and Timothy Leary and not militant groups like the Black Panther or Weathermen. I guess “organization” was the wrong word, and I should have said something more along the lines of “collective action.” Anyway, my basic point is that I feel like I want to contribute to some action and that there’s a great validation and crystallization of feelings and ideas that occur when people of like minds come together… a thing that is always ocurring on this site.
I think the key things you said here were :
Have “small groups with limited knowledge of each other”
Do not be “easy to infiltrate”
" separate … above-ground and below-ground work"
Try not to “show up on the governments radar”
And I mostly agree with you.
But are you still saying that gathering and coordination wouldn’t be beneficial in some people’s cases?
Yeah Green, I doubt you personally have much to worry about, but alot of what you’re saying also depends on where you live. The other problem as I see it ( and I think this is partially what Urban Scout was implying) is that for many people rewilding means more than just surviving in the woods alone. It means living tribally, and hopefully not too far from home. You only have to look at the treatment of the homeless to see the problem in attempting this. Camps are broken up, dumpsters locked, loitering and tresspassing laws enforced… etc. I’m not saying they’d arrest everybody who tried to rewild, but they’d sure try their best to make life damn hard for them.
The more I think about this stuff, the more that the structure of the “fight club” and the subsequent “project mayhem” pop up as models for collaborative but decentralized action. Of course, i’m not talking about the gathering of violent, all-male, cult-minded and seemingly brainwashed pranksters like the ones shown in the movie/book… fraternities like that already exist in real life. I’m more interested in how the members of “project mayhem” were satisfied in making a meager living together under the same roof while at the same time fearlessly perpetrating creative and non-lethal covert-ops against the system. In the movie they were able to start such a celebrated and widespread underground movement that no members would be able to squeal on them. Obviously in real-life-today, groups like that might become highly suspicioned, infiltrated, arrested, and condemned as terrorists (Unless they had an elaborate front, no leaks, good security, and a very thorough new-member screening process) Too bad for now it’s just a movie… but, realistically, I could see different “guilds” of civ-breaking talents like this forming during/after the crash when civs defenses are down. Fuck, for all I know, groups like this probably already exist, and some of you peeps could be in them!!!
Man, Dan, that is some scary shit!!!.. That violates almost all of the first five amendments too!!! I never thought I’d feel like such a constitutionalist!
from the act:
`(b) Purpose- It shall be the purpose of the Center to study the social, criminal, political, psychological, and economic roots of violent radicalization and homegrown terrorism in the United States and methods that can be utilized by Federal, State, local, and tribal homeland security officials to mitigate violent radicalization and homegrown terrorism.
...to mitigate violent radicalization and homegrown terrorism.
Yeah, it’s especially scary considering that those in power equate damaging property with “violence”. In fact, I believe that they concern themselves far more with protecting property than they do with protecting people’s health and well-being.
But are you still saying that gathering and coordination wouldn't be beneficial in some people's cases?
No, definitely not. I was thinking specifically about activism, as in taking action to change or dismantle the system. Relating it to the panopticon, I was referring to taking action that breaks laws (when one becomes threatened by those who control the panopticon).
However, now that I think about it, the government tends to attack those who keep their activism above-board and legal, who they know all about, because they usually have a hard time finding those who are doing the illegal stuff. Although, the government usually can’t create a credible case against those who stay “clean” (and even many who don’t), as long as the person stays smart (like not cooperating IN ANY WAY, and not telling the government anything beyond the required name, address, and birthday).
About the necessity of illegal actions - I agree that the government has made rewilding illegal. Because of what it represents, rewilding constitutes a fundamental threat to civilization, even if individual rewilders aren’t doing anything harmful to any person or creature, or breaking any of civ’s laws in any serious way.
I believe that rewilding necessitates breaking civ’s laws, from the most insignificant (like jaywalking), to the most fundamental (like the “right” of private property). And I believe that dismantling civilization constitutes a fundamental part of rewilding (“undoing domestication”), which requires breaking civ’s laws (obviously ;)).
Jessica
Also specific to this discussion: monitoring the internet was one of the main ways suggested to enforce HR 1955.
To learn about some of the people who have been “caught” :
Some of the government tactics sound like “entrapment”, but i don’t know much about law. That site itself could be a trap! This site could be a trap! Oh no, I’m getting paranoid! Damn you, Panopticon!!!
I couldn’t agree with this more. I believe in courage, but not stupidity. I do think though that you can be organized without centralization. I just think all members of this decentralized movement would need to be at least on the same page, not working together, but towards the same end.
I do agree with brian as well. I firmly believe we need to organize small groups so that we can be around like minded individuals and not just get a few hours a day to mimic that sort of interaction with an online forum. I believe this will help us to not only brainstorm but truly focus on rewilding. It will also bring hope to people like me who are constantly surrounded by civvies.