What do you think about self righteousness?
What do you think about one group believing that they have the “right” way and others are wrong and don’t deserve to continue.
Do you see it here? Is it dangerous?
Does it lead to the righteous falling into the same traps as those they disagree with?
It scares me. I think it’s a very dangerous pitfall.
I understand where it comes from. I’m not sure how to avoid it.
Depends I guess. I don’t believe in right and wrong personally.
I think anyone who destroys the landbase needs dealing with. Whether your community chooses to eliminate them or attempt to transform them (or if one is not successful than trying the other) is up to individual communities.
We need clean water to live. We need air and soil. A lot of people do not understand this and never will. I have no problem with stopping those who are destroying the land I live on. This has nothing to do with right and wrong, it has to do with meeting the needs of the community of life. It angers me when people are too stupid to realize we need clean water, etc. Because our civilization is so focused on “right” and “wrong” as being external from the physical reality, when you try to explain to someone that we need clean water and they need to change the way they live, they think it sounds "right"eous because it sounds like you’re telling them the “right” way to live, when in fact, you’re telling them that they are killing the planet with the way they live. If they want to live, they need to stop. If they don’t stop, they will probably face the wrath of people who want to stop them from destroying the planet, as well as the wrath of the planet herself.
Righteous, ignorant civilized people scare me. Right and wrong in a distraction from the physical reality.
Generally I do not see righteousness here. Just people frustrated by a dominant paradigm that is killing the planet.
Urban Scout speaks my feeling about this really well.
I do think I see occasional ‘righteousness’ here, as an expression of folks struggling to understand the nature of our situation.
‘Righteousness’ meaning something like: I can hate you, or demonize you, or smite you, because you don’t live the right way…I have enough information to pass judgement.
Most of us have lived our entire lives with the conditioning that we must look at the world in terms of right and wrong ways to live.
For me, on my rewilding path, I see it as leading me to a self-knowledge of what I need to live, what I must do to create a nourishing life for myself.
This decidedly doesn’t mean I know how others should live…but it does tell me what to do when others act from their own ‘way to live’.
As Urban Scout says, the destruction of my mother earth as livable human habitat inspires not judgement, but an emotional response (horror! grief!) that drives me to look for ways to resolve it. In Derrick Jensen’s words, ‘by whatever means necessary’.
My necessary means happen to look like writing, teaching, and collaboration with my friends and family on a rewilded life.
Others rewilders differ.
Rewilding has caused me to see my body as extending out much farther than the confined fleshy unit as encouraged by civilization (as evinced by the phrase ‘looking out for number one’).
Where does the water in body end, as I cry wet tears that evaporate, as I take in creek water to quench my thirst? The minute that creek runs with poison, I run with poison. Where does the air in my body end, as I breath in and out. exchanging breath with the trees all around me? In mere short minutes I cease to be without this magic breath…and the moment it breathes with poison, I breathe with poison.
Without the mineral bones of the soil, I have no bones. Where do my bones end, as they form, and reform, in a dance with the land?
Where does my flesh end, as it endlessly flows and eddies back in forth from the land body into this smaller body that we call the human body? Does calling our heart an ‘organ’ separate it from my body, as singling out my flesh separates me from the land? Kill the land and you kill me. Kill my body and my heart stops beating.
This has probably wandered off the path of the topic here, so let me redirect: ‘righteousness’ abstracts all this. Who cares about right and wrong? I want to know what creates life, not what SHOULD create life, but what I can see doing it right now, what I can experience doing it.
[EDIT: Holy crap. I used 'to be" in this message. I must have had a hard day. Ahem: ‘cease to live’ works better.]
I am going to try and understand Billy’s question here as he is asking it.
The main component of the question ‘self-righteousness’
I think Urby and Williem both have done a great job directly addressing ‘righteousness’.
Now I will add the ‘self’ component.
Here’s an example I see over the internet. Efficiency. Primitivity. reduction.
I see a trend to apply the logic of one to the actions of others, and create a mode of righteousness that becomes ‘self-righteousness’
for example, one may say ‘i don’t do it that way’
that is fine. that is self-contrast.
another may say ‘you should do it this way…’
and despite benign intention, the sensitive, the deeply discerning, may see the seed of self-righteousness.
and I think it’s important to recognize and embrace this seed, but nurture it in a way so that the plant bears fruit for the people, not for the self.
let’s imagine ourselves in a more human, less dominator world.
each tribe maintains a ‘way of things’ that can easily be contrasted. In orde to preserve these ways of tthings, at the same time, they must be help to a regard that may appear to be ‘self-righteous’ but is really ‘group-righteous’, while also allowing new groups to form form new splinter families, all the time. There would not have been 1200 American languages pre-columbus had the dominator self-group-righteousness tactics of indo-europeans had been employed.
and so, as we stive to act as these theoretical theoretical tribes of one, we bounce into these walls where sometimes it only looks like self-righteousness but in actuality it’s group-righteousness of a group of one, but I think it is still common for the vestiges of self-group-righteousness to rear up on it’s hind legs, positioning itself for a strike.
What we can do as individuals is choose to suggest to others only as it would benefit one’s own loved ones. If your suggestion to someone else has no bearing on the multiple securities of your loved ones, then you are simply being self-righteous. When you suggest ‘this way is better’, you are cutting yourself off from the other ways, that are in fact, better, in favor of your way, which you are positioning as ‘righteous’, but is merely a suggestion form one society, one culture, to another.
What we can do as individuals living in groups is respect and understand why none of us are perfectly efficient, perfectly humble, perfect in any understanding in any endeavor. What we can do is realize that no matter how simply we choose to live, how complex we choose to live, it isn’t the bottom, we haven’t arrived, and that we are ALL on a journey.
We can uplift people by asking them if they have what they want, and help them get what they want. We can uplift people by asking them if the know who they are, and if we can help them understnad that. We can uplift people by asking them why they are here, and where they want to be, and help them see the way.
Otherwise, without the permission of others, all actions, even the most benign and well intentioned, are sel-service, and self-righteous.
I hope I wasn’t being too obtuse with this one, I hope I was answering your questions. If I were to share this with other people, what coaching would any of you suggest?
Thank you all for the replies. I totally agree, the right and wrong thing is pointless.
Willem, the part of your post where you seemed to think you were wandering off topic, I actually found helpful for me to get at something about myself.
You wrote, "Where does the water in body end, as I cry wet tears that evaporate, as I take in creek water to quench my thirst? The minute that creek runs with poison, I run with poison. Where does the air in my body end, as I breath in and out. exchanging breath with the trees all around me? In mere short minutes I cease to be without this magic breath…and the moment it breathes with poison, I breathe with poison.
Without the mineral bones of the soil, I have no bones. Where do my bones end, as they form, and reform, in a dance with the land?
Where does my flesh end, as it endlessly flows and eddies back in forth from the land body into this smaller body that we call the human body? Does calling our heart an ‘organ’ separate it from my body, as singling out my flesh separates me from the land? Kill the land and you kill me. Kill my body and my heart stops beating."
I have had profound experiences where this was very real to me. You see I also see that every other human is connected in that way. (like it or not)
I have this ability that I have at times considered a curse but is something I can’t deny no matter how much I would like to. I put myself in other peoples shoes. There are many times when it would be so much more convenient to only look at things from one perspective. I could see things as black and white and make simple judgements and write off everybody that wasn’t like me. But this curse of mine, to be able to put myself in anothers shoes, makes things much more complicated. I may come off as being judgemental at times but that is mostly when I respond to something immediately. Given a little more time I find myself empathizing.
TonyZ., you touched on some really good things especially in your last few paragraphs. Also I really loved your "Unique Experience " post. Beautiful simple connections with people.
You remind me of a conversation I had with my son when he was in his early 20’s. He’d been in a fair bit of trouble with the law, drugs, and alcohol and violence. He said, “I guess your pretty dissappointed with how I turned out eh?” I said Hah! dude you got a long way to go before you get even close to being “turned out”. He’s 30 and laughs about that now.
wow. the bones, breath, tears we share with the earth. . . that speaks to me too.
i had a coffee shop conversation this morning with a guy working towards a masters in international public health so he could solve the drinking water problem. intrigued, i wondered what kind of solutions he envisioned. well, turns out he defined the problem thus: folks in mexico city don’t trust the government’s story that they can safely drink their tap water. so on their five bucks slave wages a day, they pay some huge deposit on giant plastic bottles of water to lug home from the store to their families. he wondered how we could get these folks to just trust their government (the public health people) and drink the damn tap water!
needless to say, an interesting convo about rewilding ensued. city life. people’s need for the land. gov’t/corporate control of water. religion meeting (exploiting) human needs. trust. our need for approval. the “work ethic”. in the end, he had it all boiled down to a cultural dualism between the u.s. and mexico–protestant/catholic, strong family connections/weak, gov’t prying/less gov’t prying. someone had taken away this man’s dream of a world that nurtures our lives in exchange for a game of multiple choice with all crappy choices. every time we came near discussing the roots of the problem, a tidal wave of american culture sent us tumbling back to crazyland.
right way, wrong way. . . i can’t claim they exist, either. it saddens me, though, to see others identify all their choices in the world as one or the other.
Grog-
I’ve quoted you so you know the parts of your message that sent up red flags for me. This sounds a lot like unsolicited advice, rather disrespectfully delivered. Did you mean this? Do you understand our guidelines on not posting unsolicited advice? Can you imagine why I don’t respond well to this, and why the impact of this message on others worries me?
-Willem
Please accept my apologies.
Grog-
Thanks for your apology - I don’t want to dampen your high spirits (which I’ve enjoyed in other threads). Just want to encourage you to check in first with your conversation partner in these kinds of cases.
yrs,
Willem
heyvictor, Urban Scout, TonyZ, and yarrow dreamer. I want to say I’m sorry to yall too. I drank t’e Rugged Individualist Koolaid and drank deeply I might add. I love yalls posts and respect and value your opinions.
grog eater of weeds
I had the same thought, wondering if this is some dogmatic delusion like Leninism, the cult of science or the many other traps people get caught up in… Are we the insane zealots that people make us out to be? It really bit at me for a while.
Whether we are or not, nothing changes the fact that the world and everything on it (including us) are being destroyed by civilization. All life that we know of in the universe. The planet may be able to survive, but I’d like it to do more than just survive.
Humans and non humans are still agonizing, and even those fairly ‘well off’ under civilization still need poison pills to be able to sleep, kill the civilization-caused diseases that inhabit our husks, and quiet their restless hearts telling them that everything is horribly fucked up. We still fiercely compete with our neighbors for one meaningless resource that allows us to buy acquire basic necessities of life that were once free and ubiquitous. We still waste away in school, so we can waste away in a job, so we can waste away in a nursing home. I could only hope someone can prove it all wrong and tell me we’re doing just fine, but I’ll keep breathing (and fighting) while they try.
Sorry if I’m sounding preachy 
I know I’m preaching to the choir and all, but I like to hear the clacking of the keys.
here are some ‘zealous’ statements I have discerned from your overall communication, konscii, I’d like to hear what you think about them…
“we still waste away in school, so we can waste away in a job, so we can waste away in a nursing home”
what I hear is a very dogmatic, simplistic, two-dimensional view of the possibilities of life, even of life in the city. BUt this is not so. I see bright young people eager to learn anything they can, everywhere I go. I see brilliant young and middle aged people working hard to contribute to society, everywhere I work. I see strong, wise elder people maing connections, sharing what they know, everywhere I listen.
Sure, there are systematic elements that would prefer homogeneity over diversity, and so on, but simply because ‘the man’ would like things to be simple, rigourous, and profit-conscious, does not make such things so.
I don’t know what it’s like to live in the human ant farms. I know what it’s like to live in city, and in the woods. I know what it is like to live in Indianapolis, where the possibilities are everywhere. I know what it is like to live in New Orleans, where a real culture of food, music, dance, art and people still exist as a bubble of fresh air in consumer culture.
So perhaps, it is a bit dogmatic to say that everyone in ‘civilization’ is ‘wasting away’, but I don’t know the pain and suffering of cookie cutter homes and the darkness of the one-career-track mind. It’s impossible for me to absorb these lessons, that would be akin to self-mutilation without the cool scar afterwards. Find people who aren’t ‘wasting away’ they are everywhere, just maybe not in your neighborhood…
On the other hand, it’s obvious we aren’t all doing well and self-determining our destinies. Is there a way to turn around self-defeating, zealous everyone IS _________ thoughts into an understanding that once the spell of mother culture is broken, what left is the work of becoming self-sufficent, learning how not to plug in but participate?
What I’m saying is, I believe that making life a spectator sport, where the hottest and the richest win and the rest of us just strive silently, and actively watch the winners win, is our downfall.
When we actively participate in our well being, when we fully understand waht that means in an ecological, economical, and social sense, we realize there is much more to determine about ourselves than where to go to school, what symbols to flash one another on our clothing and pieces of paper we carry in our pocket, and start getting real, stop using symbols, and just become a part of each others’ lives.
I wonder the same thing, and often. I’ve concluded that a holistic, empathetic, and humane approach to reversing and rewriting our behavior cannot result in insane zealotry. It’s so important to be mindful of your whole self as you rewild, instead of ticking off a list of skills to learn. Even though you have the right intentions, and the right comprehension of why you are rewilding, there is still a self-discovery process that you have to do when you start removing yourself from civilized thinking. You start to see the behaviors you want to change (especially those that hinge on the overarching mantra “there is one right way to live”), and eventually you have to get at the root of them if you are going to be totally free from civilization’s destructive ways. You also have to acknowledge the experiences in your personal history that previously had you locked or indoctrinated into civilized behavior patterns (consider the ideas/rationale you’ve had to tell yourself over and over again in order to keep your job, or get through school - they come from your experience of civ and what you’ve learned from the models of other people around you).
what I hear is a very dogmatic, simplistic, two-dimensional view of the possibilities of life, even of life in the city.You're right, I should have prefaced this (and most of the post) by saying "I feel culture telling us:". My predisposition toward angry rhetorical prose tends to obscure my true belief that people know inside what is going on, and beauty is abundant and bursting at the seams. If that weren't the case, I'm not sure this discussion would be possible.
everyone in 'civilization' is 'wasting away'Not everyone, I didn't mean to imply that, but certainly enough of my loved ones for me to be more than a little concerned.
this is what conversation is all about, uncovering and understanding each other.
I’m sure if a rant or vent of mine was the first thing someone wrote of mine, I too could easily seem dismissive, and overly broad. I think it’s important to continue to have challenging, engaging conversation so that we can grow, because nothing breeds stagnation more than agreement.
Yeah, I too have loved ones who aren’t fully happy, who are struggling. I consider myself to be the first one that I am concerned with. I so often make choices and speak words, that upon reflection, didn’t seem to have my best interests, or my constructed self-image, in perfect mind.
Why does that happen? the symbols floating around in our head, our heed to the pleasure of others, the pleasure of those things around us leads us when we’d prefer not to be lead. That is why some of the greatest minds seclude and hide away themselves, or at least their brilliance, lest it be tarnished in the multiplicity of this highly-symbolic world.
As much as we are meaning machines, we are grasping machines, as well. We have thousands of mental hands grasping, and letting go all at the same time. It’s difficult to understand sometimes when overwhelmed with expectation what exactly it is we believe, and what we can comfortably grasp and let go.
the process of creating your own graspings is fluid, not to be set in stone.
for me, I try and act in compassion whenever I can, but I could harm my own ability to act in compasion by overindulging in compassion. I could give away my last dollar to a hungry man, but then I might not have money for the street car to get home. I have to get home, and wake up, and go to work in order for me to be a vehicle of compassion, otherwise, I will through my compassion, put myself in the position to be in need of the compassion of another.
I got a feeling here that to totally explain everything I’m trying to say, that I would have to write chapters, not paragraphs, so I’ll stop myself with what I’ve said already.
Good luck, and good journey, friend
Tony
The willingness of different board members to explore their possible and existing flaws is a relief to me.
I was really pretentious growing up-- chasing down the impossible ideal of being a perfect kid (good grades, good at sports, good at work, hot girlfriend, going on to a good career) by conservative upper middle class (white) values.
The past few years have been a time of great pain and change as realize the full extent of the foolishness and harm that my former ambitions caused.
I am attracted to rewilding, because it gives me a framework to understand why I can never and should never live up to anyone elses ideal.
Even if it is simple stuff like becoming comfortable not showering every day or not using deodorant, rewilding helps my overactive, overly philosophical, and at times, obsessively perfectionistic mind to realize that
I AM A CREATURE
and no, I am not obligated to succeed in an artificial zero sum game of competition.
i will use rewilding to get away from token guesture kabuki politics, and back to whatever is left of the biosphere.
and insomuch as the kabuki political military industrial media pharmaceutical agribusiness etc complex gets in my way…
I will act in a decisive manner, to evade and subvert the machine, and if I am called a terrorist or a green fascist or a commie bastard or a crazy primitivist or a dirty hippy or an ungrateful consumer unit or an unpatriotic producer unit…
then I will keep on doing what I am doing and not allow myself to be distracted or hurt by junior high-ish name calling.
[quote=“barefoot, post:16, topic:559”]The willingness of different board members to explore their possible and existing flaws is a relief to me.
I was really pretentious growing up-- chasing down the impossible ideal of being a perfect kid (good grades, good at sports, good at work, hot girlfriend, going on to a good career) by conservative upper middle class (white) values.
The past few years have been a time of great pain and change as realize the full extent of the foolishness and harm that my former ambitions caused.
I am attracted to rewilding, because it gives me a framework to understand why I can never and should never live up to anyone elses ideal.
Even if it is simple stuff like becoming comfortable not showering every day or not using deodorant, rewilding helps my overactive, overly philosophical, and at times, obsessively perfectionistic mind to realize that
I AM A CREATURE
and no, I am not obligated to succeed in an artificial zero sum game of competition.
i will use rewilding to get away from token guesture kabuki politics, and back to whatever is left of the biosphere.
and insomuch as the kabuki political military industrial media pharmaceutical agribusiness etc complex gets in my way…
I will act in a decisive manner, to evade and subvert the machine, and if I am called a terrorist or a green fascist or a commie bastard or a crazy primitivist or a dirty hippy or an ungrateful consumer unit or an unpatriotic producer unit…
then I will keep on doing what I am doing and not allow myself to be distracted or hurt by junior high-ish name calling.[/quote]
to me the this is refreshing in at least these ways.
On self righteous I read an interesting article about two villages in rural Mexico. One was happy and healthy on a diet made up primarily of beans and corn. One down the beach a ways same diet people starving to death. So an American hotshot from some ware analyzed there diet in detail and found out that healthy village used wood ash in there cooking making the corn and beans more digestible and that shaking the beans stored in clay pots dislodged the bean weevils so they didn’t eat half the stored crop. So our hero figures ecstatically problem solved. So he runs to the other village to tell them they’re saved. When he shows up though, the villages tells him despite the fact that they’re starving they want know part of it because that’s not how they do things traditionally. This made me look very hard into my soul. The only thing I could come up with was that loudest protesters make the best converts and mass apathy kills us all.
or perhaps, tradition isn’t king, and that which doesn’t bend, breaks.
tranny granny here , self rightiousness is not rightiousness. hoop law says give everything its life. if any are not doing this they are breaking the natural law . wehave a covenant with the seven generations creation and creator to do this. there is no excuse for covenant breakers thank you sheema shicheen ;D