If someone came to you and said that they plan to move into the wilderness the following day, would you be eager to join with them?
If not, why?
( Think of this thread as a analogical possibility.)
Yes, because, you know, I’d like to do that.
No, because my family & I aren’t ready for it.
[quote=“jhereg, post:2, topic:373”]Yes, because, you know, I’d like to do that.
No, because my family & I aren’t ready for it.[/quote]
With a family that is understandable.
I am more wondering about the solitare members here.
It’s a big step in both mind and body. As well as family and friends. But if with family/friends I think it can be accomplished.
Probably not; they’re probably just walking off to their deaths. Why would I want to join in that?
Where Have All the Savages Gone?
Why walking off into “the wilderness” is probably suicidal right now, and for at least a few years to come. (Also, anybody who talks about “the wilderness” obviously owes more of his experience to Romantic philosophy than any experience with the more-than-human world; see also, “Wilderness & Its Troubles.”)
I would. So let’s go Joker.
I already am going in about two years time from now. I’m basically saving money to do so at this point.
( PM me for more information.)
[quote=“jason, post:5, topic:373”]Probably not; they’re probably just walking off to their deaths. Why would I want to join in that?
Where Have All the Savages Gone?
Why walking off into “the wilderness” is probably suicidal right now, and for at least a few years to come. (Also, anybody who talks about “the wilderness” obviously owes more of his experience to Romantic philosophy than any experience with the more-than-human world; see also, “Wilderness & Its Troubles.”)[/quote]
Probably not; they're probably just walking off to their deaths. Why would I want to join in that?
Isn’t that just a cop out though? There is risks in everything that people do and the only way people will know anything for certain is by taking the risk of their goals.
I have read all the internet articles of the nay sayers who preach rewilding but still live in cities with the very things they oppose at the same time and frankly I don’t understand a bit of it.
Now if you have a family to attend like some members here that is the only thing I can fully understand but if you don’t , what exactly is stopping you besides fear?
Which could be true, but I feel the same way in Civilization, except in civilization you know what the main causes of death are, how they come about, and how modern medical practices attempt to ‘save’ people. Without it, currently we don’t know, we can think, what might be our cause of death if we leave civilization? Eat something poisonous and die (into the wild)? Just get sick (who knows from what) and die (unable to sustain oneself)? Attacked by large predators (thrown at people all over the news)? Hunted by the government/police/ etc.? “Hunted” by man, i.e. shot at? Break a leg or other body part and be crippled and die to the elements?
What are some more ways that leaving civilization is like walking into death (Metaphorically speaking, to me, it is, but with death there is also birth).
We know these things, they are always thrown out at us in the media, in our fears, and show us how civilization is much safer…
However most of the deaths through these incidents seem only to happen if one were alone… A broken bone can be healed, and with a supportive group one should not die because of it… Sickness can be overcome… With a group determining if something is safe or unsafe, there may contain more knowledge…
I’d have to say to me, Rewilding takes a four point plan. 1) Learning the skills and lore (plant and animal). 2) Developing thought, mind, and spirit (rewilding language, mind etc). 3) Forming a group, -family-, friends, to support, share, experience with, and learn from. 4) Creating a plan, a solid way, path, to break from civilization, and freely, and I mean freely, and becoming a new ‘nation’.
I already am going in about two years time from now. I'm basically saving money to do so at this point.
Yeah, I’m actually doing the same thing.
Isn't that just a cop out though? There is risks in everything that people do and the only way people will know anything for certain is by taking the risk of their goals.I have read all the internet articles of the nay sayers who preach rewilding but still live in cities with the very things they oppose at the same time and frankly I don’t understand a bit of it.
Now if you have a family to attend like some members here that is the only thing I can fully understand but if you don’t , what exactly is stopping you besides fear?
I pretty much agree Joker. I’ve taken some heat from some of my fellow rewilders for wanting to live in the wilderness, which seems strange to me. I’ve talked about living alone in the wilderness, but actually the ‘alone’ part has nothing to do with it. I’ve just always assumed no one will come with me, so I say ‘alone’. If someone wants to join me, and I know and like that person or perhaps several people and they have good skills and can contribute well to living, I’d love to go out there and live with them. But that’s just not going to happen. Very, very few people would seriously consider doing it. And that’s why I usually talk about being ‘alone’. I just want to be out there, and there’s nothing wrong with that. Yes, I realize it’s far from perfect; community is so very important. But living with community(and a somewhat fucked up one for that matter) while living completely disconnected from the natural world in a city isn’t any better in my opinion.
You’re right, everything in life requires risk, and you never know until you try.
So go jump off a bridge.
C’mon … oh, you don’t know you’re going to die until you try it!
Well isn’t that just a cop out, though?
Risks are not all created equal. Some risks are worth taking; others are sure to turn out badly. Running off into “the wilderness” alone, or while civilization is still growing, is no more a “risk” than jumping off a bridge. You will fail, just like the long, long, long line of people who tried it before you.
Does that make rewilding useless? Of course not! You can make yourself a little more feral every day without buying into the Romantic nonsense of running off into “the wilderness.” (And, as I said before, just using the term “the wilderness” should raise a huge red flag that whoever said it doesn’t understand what they’re talking about.) Because if you’re becoming more feral every day, and civilization is tipping a little more every day, then you’re eventually going to reach the point where that risk tips, and then it’s time to make a break for it.
So if you believe in rewilding, is it a cop out to pursue rewilding thoughtfully, effectively, in a way that will work, when you could make a suicidal break for it and get crushed? No, I don’t think it is.
Fenris, your plan sounds an awful lot like mine. I guess you’re copping out, too. 
That approach is sensible, but following that won’t have you running out into “the wilderness” any time soon.
Ando, you sound as if you think community is just a great thing to have. That’s a very civilized attitude to have, the kind of attitude that gets you killed if you try to wander off into “the wilderness.” Ask a native person, and they’ll tell you the exact opposite: the community is all that matters. Living in civilization to keep your community? So what, at least you still have your community. No native would ever think it a good idea to abandon their community for “the wilderness,” no matter what kind of mess their community was in.
Of course, the lone outdoorsman striking out into the wilderness is the icon of Romantic mythology that stirs the Western imagination, so it’s hardly surprising to hear it invoked and yearned for. But pursuing that gets plenty of people killed, because it’s a myth. That’s not how native people lived, and out there, all the civilized notions you never knew you had will get you killed.
Did you hear they’re making a movie out of Into the Wild? That makes it onto every primitivist reading list for good reason.
I agree with you Jason, the importance of community. All the dangers I mentioned show death when one goes out alone, but to me it does not come down to merely death… while I may be more ‘anti-social’ than the average person, actually, I’m finding that not so true, ‘anti-social’, I can be just as social (though I can act like the ‘strong silent type’) as anyone, it’s more that I am anti-civilization of course… and if most of this cultures sociality is based on civilization and all its things, then I guess I am =P
But mark me, if I left civilization with no community/family/group/social unit, or whatever, if I didn’t die of one of those early mentioned causes, I’d probably just as well go crazy and die somehow as well, or come back.
But am I “copping out”? No. If I was copping out I would simply be talking about all this without the belief that it could soon happen. without even attempting. I hold a difference to “copping out” and building up the ability.
It’s as though I’ve put myself back to a child, and am trying to relearn, rethink, rewild, everything I’ve been laid upon by men. One can’t expect a child to run out of its community and survive…
Into the Wild follows the story of Christopher McCandless, who wandered off into the Alaskan wilderness and was later found dead. Krakauer fills out the book with an examination of Jack London, Henry David Thoreau, and the rest of the Romantic authors who left us with this whole idea in the first place. It’s a great example of some of that long, long list of people who run off into the “wilderness” and fail. If you’re lucky, you’re just humiliated, and not killed.
You can make yourself a little more feral every day without buying into the Romantic nonsense of running off into "the wilderness." (And, as I said before, just using the term "the wilderness" should raise a huge red flag that whoever said it doesn't understand what they're talking about.)
Well, what would be a better word for “wilderness”? What should we be calling it?
Ando, you sound as if you think community is just a great thing to have. That's a very civilized attitude to have, the kind of attitude that gets you killed if you try to wander off into "the wilderness." Ask a native person, and they'll tell you the exact opposite: the community is all that matters. Living in civilization to keep your community? So what, at least you still have your community. No native would ever think it a good idea to abandon their community for "the wilderness," no matter what kind of mess their community was in.
What community do we really have right now? Personally, my family is far away from me, and very dispersed, and I have little contact with them. This is a pretty common situation. I have very few close friends, which is also pretty common these days. Is that an example of a civilized community? It doesn’t sound like a community at all. You seem to have more of a community than me, considering I don’t have one at all, so why don’t you just do what you want to do and quit bashing me and others for what we want to do. I’m not criticizing you for you’re decision, so don’t criticize me for mine. If I sounded like I was criticizing you, I’m sorry and it was not intended.
Of course, the lone outdoorsman striking out into the wilderness is the icon of Romantic mythology that stirs the Western imagination, so it's hardly surprising to hear it invoked and yearned for. But pursuing that gets plenty of people killed, because it's a myth. That's not how native people lived, and out there, all the civilized notions you never knew you had will get you killed.
It’s not necessarily going to get you killed. As I’ve said many times, it’s far from ideal, but there have been people who’ve lived alone in the wilds. I don’t know how to get this through your head, Jason. It’s definitely not for everyone, but can’t you accept the idea that some people may actually prefer it to civilized life and their so-called “community”?
Did you hear they're making a movie out of Into the Wild? That makes it onto every primitivist reading list for good reason.
Yes I was aware of the upcoming movie, and I’m sure you instantly achieved an erection upon hearing of it, Jason. Ha ha, I’m just kidding. Don’t freak out over that, Jason, I’m just poking fun. And I’d just like to say that Chris McCandless was a fucking DUMBASS, DUMBASS, DUMBASS, DUMBASS, DUMBASS, DUMBASS, DUMBASS, FUCKING IDIOT DUMBASS! Fuck Chris McCandless! He’s one of your very few references on why one can’t live alone in the wild, while you ignore others who have lived it well. I’ll say it again: Fuck that idiot McCandless!
Ando I know where you are coming from. I come from a broken family, parents divorced when I was 8, mom remarried, divorced again 2 years later… in my immediate family 3 of us so far have left Michigan, my sister in Colorado, my brother in Indiana. I also have very few close friends, and they are even in Michigan so its funny to call them close. I have friends here in WA, some class mates and what not, and it makes it tough, especially with my views on civilization, to find community in civilization.
But I hold fringes to different communities. My family, however slightly, school, work, gaming communities, and the community on this site. However all of them are severely lacking. And this might take to what Jason was saying. That civilization sees community as something to have, something to be quantified, materialized, consumed. And with concern to the native views I would think that it can be interpreted that wilderness might be where you find no community.
When he said
No native would ever think it a good idea to abandon their community for "the wilderness," no matter what kind of mess their community was in.This doesn't mean to endure in civilizations communities until it self destructs, or leave them, but perhaps to bring your community out of civilization, and into the natural harmony of the world. And so maybe if you don't feel you have a community, then you are already in the wilderness. And I'll give you that, with no community, I'd much rather find myself in the 'wilderness' (woods, mountains, etc) rather than some city. I'd easily leave (with the primitive physical 'skills') the city.
And I would think that, from what Jason was referring to, our view from history of the wilderness is a place one is cast out to.
An interesting definition of wilderness: (politics) a state of disfavor
of course other definitions exist, but the wilderness is traditionally seen as a place of escape or exile, which is why I try to not talk of how I am going to go into the wilderness, but rather leave civilization (though might that be an escape >>), and where I go will become my home, habitat, might be the woods, the mountains, places where men at the time are not, and other men may call such scenery the wilderness, but that’s not what it will be to me, and it will be with community.
And in that I don’t feel the right to judge or criticize anyones actions or feelings, especially on this site, because I know every time I see the woods, a beautiful looking place, I imagine right then just leaving it all behind, and of course I go out, and go exploring, but I always return, with bittersweetness. Why? I’d say because of no community. And in that I’d have to say rewilding may be a way of reclaiming community among others. But for now I am in civilizations ‘community’, though I’d hold on the fringe of it. And perhaps there is a latent community in civilization, developing, but not yet formed, and I think the time is growing ripe, this is the age in which this community will finally be able to take its roots, finally not be burned at the stake (though the attempt may be made).
I don’t know if I’m making sense, many of these ideas I just kind of took hold of and ran with, a lot of theorizing. Let me know if I mishandled anything. =P
Thanks Fenriswolfr, that actually made alot of sense to me. Yes, I see where you and Jason are coming from regarding our concept of ‘wilderness’. I didn’t focus much attention in my last post on that part of what Jason was talking about, but I do understand both of you. Likewise regarding community. Granted, community may be all that matters to a native person, but I don’t have anything even close to that. Maybe that’s why I’m on this forum; I yearn for some sort of community. I’ve always felt somewhat of a disconnection from my fellow humans. I’ve always been shy and I never related well to others. The incredible shallowness of so many people just turns me off.
I would like to experience living in a tribal community. And there’s this idea about building communities for the coming post-civilizational world. That all sounds really great to me, but it’s such a foreign concept. That doesn’t mean I won’t try to get involved in something like that in the future, but at the moment I wouldn’t even know where to start considering I don’t have anything that really even resembles a community. But for now, the idea of living at least for a time in the wilderness(please don’t point out the use of the word) has consumed me, and I must attempt it. Call me childish or foolish or whatever, I don’t care. I have to try it before my life is over. I have to try it for the possibility that civilization does not disintegrate enough to allow tribal living, and I don’t want to be stuck in a city the rest of my life waiting for it to.
First off, yes, you do. At least, you do if you want it. That’s a big part of why this forum is even here.
Secondly, I want to clarify my initial post.
When I said my family and I weren’t ready, that’s exactly what I meant. Even as a group (which would be easier) we’re just not there yet. There are various reasons we’re not ready, and we’ve got an adaptable plan in place to address that.
Finally, a word (or two) about wilderness. While we (as rewilders) do need to recognize that wilderness isn’t Other, it makes a handy shorthand for those areas which are thought of as dangerous and/or not fit for long term human occupation by non-rewilders. I think that, as such, the term does have value to us.
Okay, that’s my 2 cents, I think I’m done w/ this thread now.
Well, what would be a better word for "wilderness"? What should we be calling it?
Finally, a word (or two) about wilderness. While we (as rewilders) do need to recognize that wilderness isn't Other, it makes a handy shorthand for those areas which are thought of as dangerous and/or not fit for long term human occupation by non-rewilders. I think that, as such, the term does have value to us.
We did not think of the great open plains, the beautiful rolling hills, and winding streams with tangled growth, as “wild.†Only to the white man was nature a “wilderness†and only to him was the land “infested†with “wild†animals and “savage†people.
I don’t disagree very often with you, jhereg. I’m glad we’ve found something.
“Wilderness” does not actually exist. It describes a common myth from Romantic philosophy about the “untrammeled” parts where humans don’t belong. Maybe by “human” you only mean “real humans,” or “civilized humans,” but that doesn’t change the story. Read Cronon’s essay, “The Trouble with Wilderness,” or my own treatment, “Wilderness & Its Troubles.” “Wilderness” has more to do with chauvanistic, colonized notions that spring up from domesticated thought than anything a wild person would recognize. In order to have wilderness, you have to first have the farm to contrast it to. If you don’t recognize the farm, all you see there just looks like a constant disaster area; as soon as it starts to heal, another disaster hits.
What would be a better thing to call it? First, to recognize that there is no “it” to call. It’s just the world.
What community do we really have right now? Personally, my family is far away from me, and very dispersed, and I have little contact with them. This is a pretty common situation. I have very few close friends, which is also pretty common these days. Is that an example of a civilized community? It doesn't sound like a community at all.
It’s a start. When I was younger and first got into anti-civ thought, I became pretty militant, and I managed to alienate most of my family. It took a long time to repair the damage I caused. You sound like you actually have a head start over where I was. That’s community, and a pretty good one. The Tribe of Anthropik consists of three people right now: me, my wife and my brother. Expand that out to all the people who are with us, and you only get up to half a dozen, and you’re still just talking about family. That’s definitely a community.
It's not necessarily going to get you killed.
I suppose it could just get you humiliated. Here’s the thing: there’s a long, long, long line of people who’ve tried just that. And not one of them–not one–has succeeded. At best, they just came back. At worst, they died. Look at Thomas Elpel, Brent Ladd, and the others. Some of them (like Ladd) even did everything right, but they still ended up coming back, because the space just doesn’t exist yet.
As I've said many times, it's far from ideal, but there have been people who've lived alone in the wilds.
Never for very long. A season, a year at the most.
I don't know how to get this through your head, Jason.
Something true would help. It’s not that the things you’re saying are unique; they’re not, people say them all the time. It’s that they’re not true. They’re myths. People don’t survive very long in the woods by themselves.
It's definitely not for everyone, but can't you accept the idea that some people may actually prefer it to civilized life and their so-called "community"?
If anyone had ever succeeded at it, I could. And I’ve been looking for evidence that somebody had; that would be a role model to follow. But no one ever has.
Yes I was aware of the upcoming movie, and I'm sure you instantly achieved an erection upon hearing of it, Jason.
Actually, my first thought was that we must be getting too influential. Most people, of course, think of “the wilderness” as the big bad boogeyman who will come to get them. Into the Wild usually works to increase that perception. It’s good for people who go overboard believing all the Romantic myths, because it tempers that with a dose of reality, but for most people, they already have an unrealistically negative view of “the wilderness.”
And I'd just like to say that Chris McCandless was a fucking DUMBASS, DUMBASS, DUMBASS, DUMBASS, DUMBASS, DUMBASS, DUMBASS, FUCKING IDIOT DUMBASS! Fuck Chris McCandless!
Uh, actually, Chris McCandless was probably better prepared than anyone on this board. He spent a pretty long time surviving from one small town to another, including some pretty scary close encounters, before embarking on his “Alaskan Odyssey.” He was an accomplished outdoorsman, probably better than any of us here.
He was a dumbass, but only insofar as he thought he could make it alone. And all he wanted to do was a little trip through Alaska; he wasn’t even trying to live there.
He's one of your very few references on why one can't live alone in the wild, while you ignore others who have lived it well.
I actually have a pretty long list. There’s also Thomas Elpel and Brent Ladd, Tom Brown, Jr., Tamarack Song, Daniel Boone and all the classic frontiersmen. No one has ever made it. I “ignore others who have lived it well” because they only exist in myth. Name one that actually did it.
Granted, community may be all that matters to a native person, but I don't have anything even close to that.
I thought that too, back when I was young and militant and busy alienating my family. I felt so utterly ashamed when I realized how I’d been ignoring the community I had for so long.
...but at the moment I wouldn't even know where to start considering I don't have anything that really even resembles a community.
You do have a community. It more than resembles a community, it is a community. You start by strengthening that, by puliing that closer together. Is it easy? Hell no. No one ever said rewilding would be.
But for now, the idea of living at least for a time in the wilderness(please don't point out the use of the word) has consumed me, and I must attempt it.
Well, could be it’s something you do need to experience. And I’m sure it can be a valuable experience. Chances are you won’t die, but you also won’t last. Just don’t be too proud to come back out when you have to. Everybody else did.
Ando do you want to meet up in two years? Two people working together makes better survival odds.