Racism and Rewilding (or tribal discrimination)

Im thinking a lot about this lately and hoping on some input from anyone and all.

Racism amongst tribes/native/indigenous peoples
I’ve read that many indigenous tribes believe themselves to be the “one true” people and that often any other tribes in proximity are “lesser” people or not really people at all. Ive heard of tribes having funny or downright insulting or threatening names for other tribes and considering their own tribe more important. I wonder wheter this importance consists of “more superior then” or of something else.

This thing has me stumped a bit because on a personal level i see that I too live by principle of “my tribe first” (group of close friends and family). It seems kindof natural but coming from a strong anti-racist current , it still feels discriminating. a little wrong.

Also, where does this differ from say full blown nationalism or modern mass-culture racism? i feel there is difference, like how rape is different from making love, yet i can’t seem to put my finger on it.

What do you all think of this? is this an issue worth exploring? if so what instances of racism are to be found in the wild? what do you make of that?

curious…

thanks all!

Quick answer: There’s the institutionalized aspect of most modern racism, being used as one of many ways to keep a ruling class in power and the rest of us “beasts” down below (to quote Madison).

Also, the idea of “race” we have is a relatively new invention, a product of the so-called “Enlightenment”.

The in-group out-group makes sense to me on a common level, we all have our in groups and out groups, from family, friends, neighbors, etc.

I think racism differs from such a thing because racism consists of a broad sweeping generalization of ‘people with this color skin…’ consist of your out group or as some disease or some racist crap. Of course I think people will naturally seek out people of common ethnicity because of that bond/culture one has associated with it, but I don’t think that consist of racism.

Well, to me Racism is simply a social construct that our culture has created based on physical aspects that have specific traits stereotyped to them. Was there racism as we see it today before the colonization? I don’t really think so. In my view, it was a tactic to divide people.

When you look at tribal peoples, it seems to me like their “racism” isn’t based on looks or physical traits, or even behavioral traits really. To me it is just natural competition. The difference is that they do not discriminate necessarily, they just judge the other tribe as their enemy and therefore make fun jokes at their expense. However, there’s many cases where the tribes have mutual law and code that they agree on, so that fairness and equality is kept. In our culture, racism has been segregation and dehumanization, along with slavery and such. I think maybe the “one true people” idea is just a way of staying bonded and strong together as a tribe, not a tactic to bring the other tribe beneath them.

A good example I’ve seen, although maybe just a story, was in the movie ‘Ten Canoes’. It’s about a tribe of aboriginal people, and when a rivalry rises between their tribe and another tribe, they still have codes of fairness in a way. One of the tribe’s men kills another, so the murderer has to give himself to the other tribe for them to throw spears at. So even though they hated eachother, and made fun of eachother, they had a common law.

One thing to remember, is that the many different “indigeonous” peoples are not perfect. Just because they’re indigenous does not mean that we have to follow ever bit of their mindsets. I see no reason to think that just because SOME indigenous peoples might have had superiority complexes does not mean that as rewilders we have to. Most indigenouse peoples have had divisions of labor based on gender, but any tribe I would belong to would have to stand against that idea.

I agree. If there’s anything civilization has taught us, it’s what is so dangerous about racism, sexism, and other expressions of hierarchy/inequality.

I also see modern-day racism & sexism (and other-ism, I guess) as essentially dehumanizing others. I’m wondering how this would be at all compatible with deep-held beliefs of the kinship of all life. IOW, if we consider all plants and animals to be brothers and sisters - or even more fundamentally, as all being “in the same skin”, as in you aren’t separate from me, but a part of me - then how would it even be possible to see another as “less than” (or especially, as “worthless”).

I guess it would still be possible to consider one’s own tribe to be superior if one holds these beliefs (as in my eyes are more important/valuable than my eyebrows) - it would be recognizing the connection but dismissing the other as “unimportant to the whole”.

But I still doubt that would really be possible alongside a belief that everything has inherent value and worth - such as the belief that everything has spirit, even rocks or clouds.

I’m wondering if some tribes who had superiority complexes DIDN’T have such beliefs about the sacredness of all things? Or was that universal among those who lived in harmony with the earth? (Or is the latter just romanticizing hunter-gatherers?) Hmmm…

Ive given it a little bit more brain-time and i think that we have to look for answers at their terms instead of amongst my own civ-based constructs. Therefore, we should look for an answer trough animist eyes.

Racism. Civ. It seems to tell of story superiority, but then again it might even more sound like story about diminished humanity. That the other group isnt really as human as we are. In Civ-Mind-Speak this automatically means “Less-then-Human”. Animals. In Civ-Mind-Speak this is a bad thing. For man has dominion over the world and its animals and resources. Therefore anything non-human is automatically diminished to the realm of those to be used by the true-humans. Civ-Mind-Speak has humans standing on top of the pyramid and anything else automatically means lesser-then and is cast down and here is the important part no-longer reffered to as other-then-human-persons and hereby rejected the empathy which is found amongst

Animists & Animism. All my relations. The web of life and the inter-connectedness of all. Not being human does not automatically diminish. One is merely other-then-human. Neither above nor below. merely different. The respect animism carries with it towards the non-human-world and the empathy this creates amongs people and species allows a tribe to see itself as the ingroup of people it has to daily work with and yet to have empathy for the group of people they might meet on the other side of the plains. The other tribe might not be of same importance to them as say their own kin, yet because of their animist world-view they see, different as the other tribe might be, not diminished humans, they see different possibly other-then-human-persons, on which they project their empathy and acknowledge them as an important part in the web of life. Different life. Perhaps funny life. Weird life they dont quite understand and have laughable rituals. Yet life nonetheless. Not being human as those of their own tribe obviously are, does not make them less, as happens amongst the Civ-Mind-Speakers where humans are seen as top of a hierarchy.

Herefore i think animism might be the defining factor, the line of thinking that seperates merely seeing the web of life from this logical Civ-Mind-Speak based fallacy: "My group is human. Humanity=Top of hierarchy and creation. Your group is different from my group. Therefore your group must be not-human. To not be human is to be lesser-then (see hierarchy). "

What do you think

That’s a lot to chew on, but I like the taste.

I had a teacher in high school who was a natural entertainer. He liked to say (to the delight of his students) “I treat everyone equally rotten!” Not exactly the same idea, but related.

TimeLESS, you bring interesting thoughtpaths into me with that! It seems that the civilized ethnographers mistranslated the words people had for themselves. It seems to me that the people mentioned actually didnt have a word for human, but simply, “my people”, as a contrast to other people (which includes other humans and other-than-humans). Not that they werent people, just that they werent of the same people as the speaker. At least, thats what ai speculate, given the train of thought you provoked :P.

The indigenous tribal world is not a world of in-group versus out-group. Rather, the tribal world is a web of kinship, structured something like a series of concentric circles – your closest kin, your next closest kin, etc. The entire universe is considered a web of kinship, of mutual reciprocal kinship bonds and obligations. This is the meaning of “all my relations.”

There is a lot of misunderstanding and misrepresentation about the nature of intergroup relations in tribal societies. One thing that I have often heard said is the fact that most indigenous peoples’ names for themselves simply means “human beings” implies that other human groups are not human (which would be a linguistic contradiction, does the word mean “human” or doesn’t it?). Rather, it is that most tribal peoples have no special name for themselves, they are simply the “human beings” who are of this place, among their kin of other species. Other peoples are “the people who…” talk funny, eat or do something different, or live over the hill or upriver. But this doesn’t mean that they aren’t human, any more than the fact that we call our moon “the moon” means that we think that the moons of Jupiter are not moons. People in Oregon talk about going to “the coast” – that doesn’t mean that we don’t think that the Atlantic coast is not a coast. It is “the” coast because this is our world.

The kinship system of tribes works very well internally, but its weakness, in one sense, lies in the sense that “if one of your kin harms one of my kin, all of your kin share the guilt.” Within a tribal community, there will be many social mechanisms and customs, refined through generations, devoted to keeping internal harmony and preventing feuds from developing between clans or families. But between groups with different customs and languages, who do not have shared customs, blood feuds can and did start, and could last for generations. This is not exactly the same as racism in the modern sense, but it has certain things in common with it. (Ironically, in modern society, this one aspect of tribalism is the only aspect that is still alive and well.)

In the old days, the ease with which blood feuds could start between groups of different cultures was part of the incentive to keep your group’s population within bounds, because if your population expanded too much, it could mean stepping on your neighbors’ toes. If hostilities had already developed with your neighbors, that was more incentive to keep from expanding into the buffer zones between you and your neighbors. So this kept human groups dispersed and balanced with their territories, much as packs of wolves or pairs of breeding birds maintain territories, which helps to optimize the balance between population and carrying capacity.

In cultures such as my ancestral culture, it wasn’t exactly thought that war was “bad” and peace was “good”; rather, that a certain amount of war was fine (gives the young men a chance to risk their lives, show their bravery and test their spirit power) but it was to be kept in balance and not allowed to disrupt life.

However, if two groups’ blood feud became so costly that both sides wanted it to end, it could be ended by the two groups deciding to become relatives. Rather than “making peace,” the tribal world “makes relatives.” Once two groups are kin, all warfare and feuding stop, completely and forever. The tribal prime directive is harmony with and caring for your kin.

One of the gifts of the modern world is that modern communications have allowed us to recognize all of the human species as our relatives. If we can bring the tribal sensibility of obligation to our relatives to this recognition that we are all relatives, we may begin to heal the traumas of our species.

I think this has to do with the difference between perceiving the world (and beings in the world) subjectively or objectively. Martin Buber’s book “I and Thou” talks about this - that the way we think about others falls into two categories: I-it or I-you. As Derrick Jensen says, “the former is a world of experience, of objectification. I encounter an It. I use an It. I exploit an It. An It does not have its own existence. The Latter is the world of relationship. I meet a You. I consider a You. I affect and am affected by a You.”

Its the difference between a racist seeing a black person as a member of a class of people - abstractly - and someone seeing the person for WHO they are, as a unique individual with thoughts & feelings of their own. Or the difference between seeing a tree as “board feet”, as a manifestation of monetary wealth, or seeing a tree as a being with spirit and consciousness just like any other living thing on earth.

I think the problem with civilization is that humans are only mentally able to truly relate (consider subjectively) a certain number of individuals - I read that the number was a little over 1,000 - and beyond that is impossible. So when we are surrounded by much greater numbers of people, it becomes necessary to objectify most of them (to close ourselves off from relating directly to them).

As Derrick Jensen said about this: “To navigate within cities demands intense objectification in defense of one’s sanity. I don’t even want to consider what everyone’s experiencing and thinking during a traffic jm on a hot Thursday afternoon in Los Angeles. And we haven’t yet begun to talk about the subjectivity of non-humans. Try getting through twenty-four hours considering that every fly, every spider, every moth that flutters at night into your headlamps is an individual with preferences as strong as your own.”

I think that native cultures were able to maintain subjective relationships with everything in their lives, because they were rooted in the particular - in a specific place, with specific people. It makes sense that a global culture would be forced to objectify, the moreso the more everything becomes generalized. Does that make sense? (Maybe others can explain this better…)

what your saying makes lots of sense and actually has been discussed here often. Do a little search on the forum for Dunbar’s Number, which is the cognitive limit to the number of individuals with whom any one person can maintain stable social relationships. The number is around 150, more then enough for a largish tribe id say.

Interesting thoughts, however, it appears that there is an attempt to over think the issue. As someone who has lived in the “bush” and lived off of what I could catch, find, etc… the reason for friction amongst the various tribes, clans, whatever is the same reason chimp clans fight each other, lion prides fight each other, and just about all other mammals that live in groups have friction when confronted with the same species, competion for the limited resourses needed to live. Yes there are blood fueds, yes there are conflicts, however they are all rooted in the basic principle, “I am for mine” and when it comes to eating, drinking and basically living life, your kin, family, clan or extended group will always come first. Even in areas rich in resourses for life, such as equatorial africa, chimps guard their territory against other chimps, to the extent that the males of a group will literally patrol the border of their territory and viciously attack and attempt to kill any chimp they find that is not part of their group. This forming of groups, even amongst humans is about a couple of things, one communal work such as looking after the young and sick and then protection, from animals and from other humans, simple as that. All non-clan members are seen as competition and are viewed as suspect. Even as societies grow, and become agrigarian in nature this still applies, look at MesoAmerica and for that matter, the various mississippian cultures, war and subjugation was an every day event. While it is our tendency to say we are above simple animalistic traits, in reality we are not, we have just learned how to be more effective in our compation. One other aspect is lions will go out of their way to kill leapords,hyenas and cheettas and never eat them just as wolves will kill coyotes, they are seen as competition.

Racism begins when one sees themself as separate from the community of life. HOW separate, is an individuals tao. (their gig)

As soon as “I” (the image) exists, racism/specism exists.

When the “I” image dissolves for a time, it is seen for what it really is… an illusion. All concepts, out the door… dissolved.

Tribal discrimination-severity will depend on how separate the idividuals see themselves with respect to the rest of the community of life. And this is amplifyed in their Tribal Collective Image… which may/may not lead to war. depends

If they are lead by the community of life, they will live by it.

Greyghost, I read somewhere (was it in one of the 30 theses?) that humans are unique among other primates in our egalitarianism/non-hierarchical nature. So I think that it is not accurate to extrapolate human behavioral tendencies from the behavior of other animals - each species’ innate nature is unique. Also, many species do not act competitively among themselves, or with other species, WRT resources.

Also, while it is a defining characteristic of civilized humans to fight with others in order to acquire resources - cities by nature require the importation of resources, which requires acquiring them from other lands and peoples - this is NOT a typical feature of HG societies. Their populations were so small (relative to cities), and their resource consumption so much less, that one group would never be forced to fight with another other resources. HG tribes were mobile, so could (and did) move as needed (when the plants began to be overharvested in an area, for example). I’m sure there were occasional conflicts between individuals, and many groups maintained feuds with other groups, but I think they could hardly be called “competing over resources”.

I agree with sacha and Raven that the key is feeling connected with - or separated from - others; whether or not one has a relationship with the “other”. Derrick Jensen talks about this in a Culture of Make-Believe (I’m reading it right now ;)):

"…I knew also that many indigenous cultures refer to themselves as the people, implying that everyone else is not the people. I asked whether, then, some form of xenophobia is inherent in all of us…

He [Richard Drinnon] thought a few moments before saying, ‘The name strikes you and me as xenophobic since a cardinal principle of our Western civilization has been what one anthropologist calls “the negation of the other.” By contrast, tribal cultures affirmed “the other who affirms you” and this principle of affirmation always carried with it the possibility of extending the people outward, beyond family and clan and tribe to all other beings and things in a universal embrace - adoption! - that would reflect the very antithesis of xenophobia, as I once ventured, namely “humankind’s unconscious yearnings for the unity of all people and lands.”’

…This is the key to understanding the difference between indigenous and civilized warfare: Even in warfare the indigenous maintain relationships with their honored enemy."

In fact, this whole book clearly makes the case that racism (and the hatred that is behind it) is a result of the need to possess the land and resources of others, which requires justifying this possession by separating oneself from the land and the people who live on it - objectification. In other words, racism & hatred is a necessary product of civilization.