Quinnian population dynamics

Here is what I found at Ishmael.com

The Question (ID Number 238)...
  If we were to just stabilize the production of food as of 'right' now, like you do in your mice experiments, and discontinue the way of furthering the expansion of food production, it just seems as though people in poorer areas of the world would just drop like flys.


  ...and the response:
  Let's suppose we have an island populated by a million people. Last month
  these million people received 30,000 tons of food--plenty of food. If this
  month these million people receive another 30,000 tons of food, there's no
  conceivable reason why they're going to be dropping like flies any more
  than they were last month. It's true that new babies will be born, but it's
  also true that old adults will die (and it should be noted that babies need
  less food than adults). The same will be true if they receive another
  30,000 tons of food next month, the month after that, and so on.

  Now let's suppose we have another island populated by a million people.
  Last month these million people received only 10,000 tons of food--they're
  pretty hungry. If this month these million people receive another 10,000
  tons of food, there's no conceivable reason why they're going to be
  dropping like flies any more than they were last month. The same will be
  true if they receive another 10,000 tons of food next month, the month
  after that, and so on.

  Now let's suppose we have another island populated by a million people.
  Last month these million people received only 5,000 tons of food--they're
  really hungry and some are dropping like flies. If this month these million
  people receive another 5,000 tons of food, they're going to go on being
  hungry and some are going to be dropping like flies, just like last month.
  The difference is, that, because infant mortality is likely to be high
  under these circumstances and because live births are likely to be fewer
  under these circumstances and because many children will not live to
  maturity, this population is likely to decline some. Perhaps their
  population will slip to 999,500 in this month. If they receive another
  5,000 tons of food next month, the same thing is likely to happen. And so on.</blockquote>
The Question (ID Number 731)...
  I want to know what to tell people about the food race when they ask "so who would die for our population to decrease?" Your answer to 234 seems to say that the population decline would come from stillbirths and death before adolescence (no children). I'm afraid people whose minds I wish to change won't want to hear this answer. Is this also how it works in nature, with the bunnies and wolves and rats in the lab? I can't imagine that these animals would realize that food is scarce and start practicing abstinence. As an aside, would you say, to an extent, that where more food is not the answer, proper distribution of the food we have is? Your answer about sacrificing some orange juice hinted at this.

  ...and the response:

  When the food resources of a given species in the wild declines, its population declines for a number of reasons: more time must be spent searching for food, so there is less time for mating, females become less fertile, and less care is given the young, so that the population gradually declines.

  As it presently stands, agriculturally abundant countries like ours are supporting growth in Third World countries in Asia, Africa, and South America (where all those starving millions are to be found). If we were to limit food production to a sufficiency for our own population, this support would disappear, and the starving millions would doubtless be the first to go. Your friends doubtless don't want to hear this.

  The vast majority of biologists now agree that we are in a period of mass extinctions equal to any such period of the past, as a clear result of our population's impact on the world. Do your friends want to hear this? As extinctions accelerate, there will come a point when the ecological systems that support human life will collapse--and our species will disappear along with millions of others. Do your friends want to hear this?

  In the end, I'm afraid I can't worry about what people "want" to hear. George Bush didn't want to hear that there were no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, but covering his ears didn't change the fact that there were none.</blockquote>

I’d like to say again (as I’ve made clear elsewhere), I certainly don’t agree with a lot of what Quinn says. I have no problem with questioning Quinn, and neither does Jason; after all, it was Jason that made me realize Daniel Quinn incorrectly defined agriculture

I appreciate your change of tone. Until you post everything you have to say, it’s rather useless to respond to any of it. Please just post everything you have written about this subject if you want an earnest response.

In the future, please do not use rewild.info as a place to post essays. This is a discussion forum, not a lecture hall. I would suggest you create a website with the content that you can link to from here, as all of the rest of us do, and we can have a conversation about it here (or there). Thank you.

I wanted to have a discussion of it. I would have preferred that Willem had not separated the discussion into a separate thread.

This forum officially endorses the following view, which is part of what new members are advised to read as a Rewilding Primer:

"

“The transition… will be the greatest ordeal that any species has ever endured… The loss of the complexity on which so many people depend for survival can only mean catastrophic die-off. Genocide, war, disease, starvation and widespread suffering will be involved… Collapse will mean the death of billions, and in aggregate, there is nothing that can save the mass of humanity. …Collapse will be the most terrible ordeal ever endured and billions will die in its course.”

This deserves to be discussed and explored thoroughly and in depth. It is important. I am sorry that the posts run long (making them “essays”). I don’t know if I am being asked to stop, or try to condense my posts into something shorter, or what.

If I see something I disagree with that is a fundamental point in your idea, than there is no point in you posting more as it would undermine the rest. If I can’t look at your whole point at once, than I can’t begin to discuss the points because I feel that I keep getting steam rolled with more writing.

It’s very hard to follow along this way, or come up with anything constructive to say about it. I’m not asking you to stop. I would like to have a discussion on this topic, which is why I said:

Please just post everything you have written about this subject if you want an earnest response.

and

I would suggest you create a website with the content that you can link to from here, as all of the rest of us do, and we can have a conversation about it here (or there). Thank you.

Thanks! :slight_smile: :slight_smile: :slight_smile:

Any chance we can start behaving like uncivilized people?

I’m interested in the thread, particularly if it’s devoid of pointed fingers.

Ha ha. :slight_smile: We need more barbaric behavior in this thread!

I can see that both Gayle/Sacha and Peter seem to want to communicate, and also that they have some frustration. Honestly, I think I’ve over-moderated this thread already (although I think usefully so :wink: ), at least in terms of my interest.

I trust that if this discussion needs to happen (and I certainly enjoy all the participating points-of-view), folks will figure out a way to make it work, for everyone involved. Good luck!

[the sound of footsteps running away, receding into the distance…]

[brief silence, followed by a burst of laughter, then the sound of more footsteps running away, receding into the distance…]

Just a note to say I’m sorry I’ve been away from the discussion for so many days, but my internet access has crashed (as happens frequently) and it’s still down, plus been busy with other things, hope to get back soon, maybe later this week or next if possible.

that’s exciting, i’ve been enjoying your posts.