Overapologizing, underapologizing

mindyfitch 2016-06-30 00:21:46 UTC #1

It's a common thing these days to point out how frequently women apologize compared with men, and the conclusion usually goes that women should stop apologizing so much. I get the basic point, but it's also funny to me because the idea that women apologize "too much" comes from gauging this behavior in comparison with the dominant male behavior of apologizing much less often. Why, after noticing a pattern of women apologizing more often than men (or to put it another way, a pattern of men not apologizing as often as women), don't more people ask whether men might benefit from apologizing more?

Anneke 2016-06-30 07:11:36 UTC #2

Nice observation. The conclusion that women should be the ones to change comes in many forms. They should try and break the glass ceiling - why should the men not make their concrete floors more porous? Women refugees are said to run risks because they travel alone - not because they might encounter people (mostly men) who do not approve of them traveling alone.
A pattern I see here: the version that describes the world from a more feminine point of view takes up more words... Sorry about that.

Karen_Rewilder 2016-07-03 10:29:18 UTC #3

I didn't know this was a thing. Funny enough though since I'm always bugging my husband to apologise more. The thing is though he sees apologises different than I do. While I'll apologise as a means to show sympathy or understanding sometimes, he thinks sorry only means admitting to doing something wrong. Perhaps this is part of where the discrepancy between apologises and men and women came from, since women tend to be more verbally empathetic.

James_Williams 2016-07-07 10:54:54 UTC #4

I will say though, despite being male, I apologize very frequently. But that's probably because of my autism, and the fact that I grew up primarily with women (a single mother and two sisters), after my parents split up and my father moved out of our house at the age of 10.

wildefemme9 2016-07-11 00:29:55 UTC #5

I've noticed this too - usually men who havent been regularly communicating with women want women to stop apologizing & are more likely not to apologize themselves or understand why their being 'chastised' if a woman asked for an apology.

mindyfitch 2016-07-11 00:54:55 UTC #6

Haha, yes, you do apologize a lot, James! In fact funny enough I think I myself might have suggested to you once that you needn't apologize so much on this forum. Oh the irony.

mindyfitch 2016-07-11 01:03:47 UTC #7

I want to clarify that my point isn't that I think men should apologize more often. I just want to draw attention to why the discussion isn't framed that way too—why is the question "Do men apologize too little?" not even really brought up while "Do women apologize too much?" gets buckets of discussion?

What other examples have you noticed of other-than-dominant-dude behavior being gauged and judged by comparison to dominant-dude behavior?

SerpentSun 2016-07-11 21:13:51 UTC #8

I've never noticed women apologizing more. I, as a woman, find most other women I encounter to be loud, obnoxious, disrespectful, demanding, entitled, overbearing, arrogant, lewd, cynical....In comparison, most of the men I know are very polite, respectful, responsible, and modest. Then again, that may just be where I live. My town is populated by what many would refer to as "crackwhores".

Just my two cents; I'm guilty of a few of those attributes myself, such as arrogance and cynicism.

mindyfitch 2016-07-11 22:47:08 UTC #9

SerpentSun/Firekin4, thanks for bringing up internalized misogyny. Ugh, that for sure is a huge part of all of this as well.

wildefemme9 2016-10-26 10:25:30 UTC #11

Uhm I cant find the side eye emoji but this has very little to do with western gender dynamics & apologizing in western society .. which is this forum is set up for.

I can understand why your not in the feminist forum as you seem to have a lot of hostility toward women and your rant would likely cause an argument in there … is actually me passively telling you and there for preemptively apologizing for telling you that what you wrote here is going to be seen as bigoted. Because it is.

Full Definition of bigot : a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance

grandioseinterloper 2016-12-18 13:51:41 UTC #12

As a male, if I tried apologizing more... would it be healthy if the apologies were forced and without bona fide meaningful substance? What if I was not feeling particularly apologetic but I had this idea planted in my head that I did not apologize often enough so I made a totally fake effort?

Also -- are the large dose of female apologies that supposedly exist mostly kind of flimsy and not exactly profound in nature? I like to apologize when I have something of gravity to apologize for. If I step on a recently mopped floor and do not have dirt on my shoes and do not leave begrimed tracks I do not see any reason to say anything apologetic... but some might just based on the principle of the affair.

It seems to me we could all benefit from reflecting on whether we apologize too often or too little and when / why we apologize, regardless of gender. For some of us who find we apologize often / too little it might be a habit that is hard to break and in need of some effort (with help) to make a behavioral alteration.

Another thing... I do not like saying the words 'I am sorry.' I do not like hearing the words 'I am sorry.' I guess it is because I have this weird thing going on that when words have two meanings and one of them reflects negatively on the speaker I do not want to say it. Sorry being both 'intending apology' and 'of low quality'. I also do not like saying things like 'I am afraid I did not do such and such.' because afraid has two meanings.

That is a neurosis or quirk or something.

mindyfitch 2016-12-19 22:59:02 UTC #13

Again:

The point I was trying to make (but that keeps getting lost) was not that women or men need to change the way they're talking. What I am trying to do is look with curiosity at this tendency for people to view the perceived behavior of nondominant people (in this case, women) through the lens of the dominant (white men). As opposed to the other way around. I think it might be a good idea for us to notice that's what we're doing.

grandioseinterloper 2016-12-19 23:21:14 UTC #14

I see. I was unaware that women were nondominant. Excuse my ignorance. I am greatly inexperienced when it comes to socializing. I really did not do it much until recently. Why and how are women nondominant?

I would like to see the world through the lens of one with the knowledge that we truly were all created equal.

wildefemme9 2017-02-21 03:53:09 UTC #15

This could be like the most innocent question but it could also be seen as trolling, if you innocently have these questions maybe try google ...
why google? because trolling a re-wilding site about gender inequality is kinda rude and getting away from the original thread discussion, when there are whole sections in libraries dedicated to this.

wildefemme9 2017-02-21 04:06:29 UTC #16

Probably because men havent been groomed on the etiquette of existing their entire lives.It's much easier to attack women who have been conditioned over and over again (since birth - theres not even a male term equivalent for femicide) by their friends, families, communities & religious and school / institutions in every patriarchal society 'round the world to mind how much space they take up with their literal bodies and intangible words.

Why does the slightest question of mens behavior (especially coming from a woman) read as (unenforceable) criticism, while the question of womens behavior is criticized here as yes thats annoying its too much change your behavior ... men have no problem telling women what to do, but women are not allowed to question them. I don't know what country your in, but look at your laws, are they directed at women by male law makers? (Or is there a historic majority female law makers making laws solely directed at men) Look at the informal social structures around you, are women performing for men what men have deemed acceptable ? (What happens when women do something "masculine" are they shamed back into "femininity"; would men in your community start doing something if you told them it was "masculine" & gave them some scientific or religious logic? what if all the women made mean comments or only rewarded those men, would they do it?)

Sorry this post is so long but from a rewilding stand point, I would hope people would look at what they want in a society they would be choosing - how do you as a woman / man want to be treated & is it acceptable if that doesnt happen? How much autonomy should a community have defining social gender dynamics or are we (we actually historically as a western society (not all people everywhere) have been cherry picking everything except gender dynamics) just carrying over old beliefs onto new societies.

Tracie_Moon 2017-02-22 03:20:26 UTC #17

I'm reading this as trolling as well, or at the very least completely unhelpful nonsense.

Tracie_Moon 2017-02-22 03:29:08 UTC #18

I find this really offensive and off topic. Dismantling misogyny is one of the key issues involved in "inner rewilding" as well as social justice and building new ways of living and relating. Perhaps consider keeping your "two cents" to yourself next time if this is what they consist of.