How have you done/started doing it? What questions and problems remain for you?
My question:
Can you tell me your stories of how you came to grips with the thought that many, many people will have to suffer and starve in a collapse?
I can’t come to grips with that.
Perhaps it is something that shouldn’t concern us, because we can’t do anything about it?
I’ve sort of always felt that tough times would hit during my lifetime since I was still a kid, and it was and still is a terrifying thought. However, the closer we get to it it’s actually gotten more difficult to wrap my head around, because, I think, each time I hear something that dawns it coming, some sort of scenario I hadn’t thought of before enters my head. I’ve definately come to grips with the fact that it’s inevitable, and instead have taken to looking at the bright side, no matter how grim.
Dealing with the mass die-offs is bitterly painful, but it hardly phases me, because ever since I was little I’d been hearing about and seeing TV footage of other nations in these predicaments. When I say it hardly phases me don’t think it doesn’t make me sad, it’s just something I’ve had no choice but to accept, since I can’t really do anything myself about it outside of the typical ‘feel good’ protests or prayer or whathaveyou. Now, when these things come to my community, I’m not sure how I’ll take it, or if I’ll be any less helpless.
The thing that’s been hardest for me to consider is the fact that the people I care about most, half of them won’t go with me to seek refuge out and away from civ. I just hope it all happens after my parents have passed away peacefully, they’re already elderly and wouldn’t fare well in a collapse scenario. Actually, that’s probably the one thing that stresses me out about this above all.
The only way I’ve managed to deal with any of this at all has been to realize that we in Western Civilization have been brought up to expect happy endings all the time. Starvation, death, disease etc isn’t supposed to exist here. We are conditioned to view the ones who deal with this every day as “others” who somehow are more deserving of it than we are. Life in the way that it’s been lived throughout recorded history, has been full of strife. Most people in the US, for example, view the Depression as as bad as it gets over here. Nevermind what the German Depression, or Russian Depression (which saw cannibalism), was like. And who they gave ascendance to.
So, when misery does happen, people don’t deal with it very well. It’s a shock. But really, it’s the shocking truth of the reality taking off its mask and showing itself for what it really is. I myself have been spared having to deal with even a natural death of someone really close to me, much less a violent death, and I’m not so confident I’d do well in that case myself, but keeping cold hard truth in mind might be my only healing savior.
I deal with it like this: lots of people starve to death right now. The only thing that collapse will change, will happen when people stop starving to death once it ends.
I wish I had your certainty Jason :-.
I don’t know how to come to grips with that, I just kind of avoid it, physically, mentally, I can say I understand that it is going to happen, but I really haven’t come to grips with it. Occasionally I do, and I cry and I scream for the &&$# corner we are backed into, but I don’t know if one can live in that space all the time.
The biggest problem I’ve seen comes down to source material. I only have such certainty because I’ve taken my conclusions from historical examples of collapse. But most people take their cue from movies, books, and fantasies about collapse. Ran’s page drives me nuts today with its lack of comments, precisely because he has the literary references coming hard and heavy today. If collapse happens like you see in the movies, then yes, the wailing and gnashing of teeth will certainly make sense. But I greatly doubt that things will go the way they do in the movies–I think it much more likely that things will follow the same course they have every other time this has happened.
The problem with historical precedent is that there has never been a society that is this large before, there was always a hinterland to go to, but there is no hinterland now. Further more, our cities are so huge, there are massive problems that could happen really easily.
I can’t remember enough of the precendent, I should really re-read collapse, but wasn’t there serious wars all through the decline of the Maya as well as mass starvation?
Well, no civilization this big has ever existed before, but collapse always followed the same route in the past, regardless of the scale. Bigger civilizations, smaller civilizations, they always collapse the same. So why would it happen differently now, just because we have a bigger civilization still?
We do have a significant hinterland, though. We rarely recognize it, but even here in the U.S., we have significant pockets where civilization has never thoroughly penetrated. And part of the historical pattern of collapse has always involved the expansion of a hinterland, what I like to call “the opening of the map,” because it runs the process of “closing the map” in reverse.
Most collapses involved a great deal of war, but look at Mayan history, or Roman history: could you really tell on that score? They saw war almost constantly. The U.S. has seen almost constant war for a century now. More importantly, as the map opens more and more, the chance to simply step away from that becomes greater.
death and pain are both natural and healthy.
i guess i realised this when i was taking a class on wine. the lecturer said, “The grapes must suffer, to produce good wine”. this phrase brought with it images of great suffering that often preceded the ascension of ancient heroes, jesus for one suffered greatly.
this is good for humanity. you may see alot of high faluten new agers runnin around, but until one has truly suffered, they cannot grow spiritually.
so when i think of all the people who are going to die because of their own ignorance, i say, “good.” perhaps they’ll learn something useful.
i look at the human species, not individuals, we are a herd, a herd that is currently degenerating. in order to heal our species we need to be culled, survival of the fittest needs to come back, so then death becomes salvation, not such a bad way to view things
population die off= salvation of our species.
unimaginable pain and suffering = enlightenment/ascension of our species.
fuckin hippies.
That kind of logic horrifies me, Raedwald. I’ve read it from the speeches of just about every tyrant in history, and heard it repeated by every pathological sociopath I’ve ever heard. Unimaginable suffering does not lead to enlightenment, it just leads to unimaginable suffering.
“fuckin hippies”
Hey, I resemble that remark!
I’m with jason on this one. People are suffering/dying now. The collapse will make things better.
I tend to think along the lines that a human population only got as big as it did because of civilisation. So when civilisation dies, so does it’s support network that can hold a population at those numbers. Humans will survive, I have no doubt of that, but at numbers of pre-civilisation.
A lot of people call me cold and ‘heartless’ because I don’t seem to care about masses of people dying. Yet, masses of people die today and can you even care about them? One death is a tragedy but a billion? My father might die and that would be horrible. But a billion people I’ve never seen or met? Sure it’s a tragedy in it’s own right, but it’s not personal.
As for suffering… When most people die of illness or after a long battle with cancer, the survivors are often left saying “At least he/she isn’t suffering anymore.” Death does not always equal that a person has suffered.
Meanwhile, my own life in civilisation… I’ve always been the “weirdo” or the quirk or the loner. I’ve never fit it. It wasn’t until I read My Ishmael that I realised why and everything suddenly fit into place. Collapse, for me, equals hope. The end of suffering. I’ve met a lot of fellow Jeffreys who would agree there’s more suffering in life than there is in death.
In civilisation, life can survive.
In the wild, life can thrive.
So yes, it will suck to look around me and see massive die-offs, shortages, but I will take care of myself first, so I’m better able to take care of others when the crash does happen.
Yeah. What you said!
I’m going to have to read that again after it sinks in a little. Whatever is blocking me from accepting die off, I fuckin NEED to get over it.
the truth is scary i guess.
Tyrants aren’t allways wrong,
and pathological sociopaths aren’t allways “crazy”.
Truths can be scary. So can delusions. Which one do you think you’ll find more often among tyrants and sociopaths, truth, or delusions?
i can honestly say i’m not at all mentally or emotionally prepared for collapse. on one hand, i know a lot of people i hold dear would probably not make it or even refuse to acknowledge what was happening. actually, at this point in my life, i probably wouldn’t survive it, either.
despite that, it’s both a promise of hope - if civilization itself really does fall - and something i have nightmares about. i know that after the collapse (even if not immediately) those who live will have much better lives, and that is truly hope to me. but i also in some ways hope i don’t have to see it happen, because it will probably be really horrifying, beyond anything i’ve known. but terrifying things happen every day far from my line of sight.
in the moments i see/feel clearly, i pray that it happens soon, worldwide, and for good. at least the suffering would have a possible end in sight, unlike now.
The thought of billions of people dying from the collapse of civilization somehow doesn’t bother me. Maybe I’m a sociopath. I see it as a big “wow, about time, now things can get back to how they should be.” I’ve always been practical minded. Not to say I’m heartless. I’m highly sensitive to the unjust suffering of others, human and non human, but that’s just what a collapse will reduce in the long term. It’s best to take the bitter pill with a smile, knowing the best is to come.
Yeah i’m with wolf here.
I came to terms with massive human death awhile ago.
We’ve managed to escape natural selection through technology. We escaped carrying capacity through cheap oil.
Most of those people are either too stupid or too dependent on civilization and will not see doom coming.
Die off is just rebalancing population.
I agree, the collapse will happen, only when and how remain to be determined. It NEEDS to happen, though, for the sake of the planet and all life on it.
I have always regarded apocalyptic-type scenarios with excitement and hope. Some scenarios (the Mad Max ones) would make me shoot myself to get it over with, but I don’t worry about those because I don’t believe they will ever become reality. I think most people WANT to live happily, want community, want to get along with others, etc. The reason why so many fail at this and exhibit anti-social behavior lies with the malaise of civilization, not with human nature (only those who feel attached to civilization argue otherwise, I think).
On a global level, I do not feel any more disturbed by thoughts of hundreds of millions dying during the collapse, than I do by thinking of the reality of the massive death of countless millions of living things happening right now. Or thinking about the rate of deforestation, global warming, the gigantic mass of garbage one and a half times the size of the United States floating in the Pacific ocean, … Or even thinking only about the human casualties of civilization that are happening right now.
On a personal level, sure the collapse will bring many challenges, and hardships for those dependent on civ. But it will also open up space, for the first time in so long, for people to truly be able to LIVE, as free human beings in control of their own lives.
Yes, death will happen, but it is happening now, and will happen no matter what. Death inevitably happens as a part of life, in any time and place. The collapse won’t change that fact, just the particulars (some will die who might otherwise live, while others will live who would otherwise die). Although in sum total (counting non-humans as well as humans), I think the collapse will save more lives than it takes. It will also save whole species that would otherwise be lost, possibly including the human species.
Jessica
I went to bed the other nigt after satying up late trying to get a more comprehensive understanding of peak oil. (trying to verify the numerous facts and apply the math myself) I eventually gave up, realizing that no one really knows how much oil there is. The political pressures surrounding oil makes all figures reported by everyone suspect. but I’m getting off topic.
I had a dream:
I was talking with my cousin who lives with me, and he was holding a joint in his hand. While we were talking there was a knock on the door and some Jehovas Witness type ladies standing outside it. I saw the look on one of the ladies faces when she saw my cousin’s joint. He said something to the effect of “we don’t want any” and closed the door. I told my cousin, “I think they are going to call the cops on us, we have to get out of here!” He agreed and we both started running in different directions. As I was running I realized that my roomate was still home, I had to warn him!
I ran back to my home, and to his room. I found him playing video games witha friend. I told him that the cops were comming, we have to get out of here! He seemed quizical. I told him again, “I think the cops are coming, we have to go NOW!” He said okay okay, but let me finish this game. I persisted a third time, and he said, “okay okay, the games almost over.” A few “seconds pass” (dream time is funny) I try and persued him another time, but am interupped by a three heavy knocks at the door.
It was at this point I think I should have woke up gasping, as if from a nightmare. I didn’t. Instead I felt my heart start to beat strongly in my chest. I realized I was dreaming, but I didn’t wake up. I layed there, heart pounding still asleep, and the realization rolled over me. As I accepted the realization, I awoke.
I had gone to sleep wondering what to do about the comming crash. I felt like I want everyone to know it’s comming so that they can prepare.
I woke from the dream with a knowing. I must follow my heart. I must warn those who will listen. I cannot save everyone, there are some who are too mentaly trapped by society. When my intution tells me to run, it’s time to go, NOW.
I don’t know what dreams mean. Some people say dreams are satisfying subconscious desires. Some say they are visions of the future. From my own experience I feel that dreams are a way for my mind to work out the experiences of waking life.
I am not trying to convince anyone to do anything, except listen to thier own heart.
I am sharing this because I have read posts from people concerned about the suffering of those who will refuse to accept that the sky is falling. I too felt this way, and wondered what to do. Through this dream I have found solace.
Respect.