For me, spirit has a lot to do with how I relate to the world (connection or “one-ness”), but it’s a two-way street. When you open to the world, your spirit becomes a part of it, and it a part of you. And I’m sorry to say so, but there is no way in hell I want the people in my neighborhood to be “part of me.” I don’t hate them or anything, but they have messed-up priorities. I don’t feel that there’s anything of lasting value I can learn from them.
Hm, that seems a bit harsh to me. If you’re honestly so stirred up about simple neighbors( who probably aren’t the way they are by choice, but by how they were placed in this world, as most people are) then perhaps they will be your greatest teachers. I always find that the things that bother me the most and make me lose sight of compassion and love are the things I need to work most at, and that teach me the most.
People around you are mirrors, when you see something you don’t like about them, it’s usually a quality in yourself that you’re not accepting. At least that’s what I’ve found…
I always feel better about people that bother me if I just let go and accept them as fellow human beings, and when I am able to love them despite their flaws, then spirit is strong with me. I think you can learn alot that way.
Yea, it’s also a great way to avoid forming a positive and critical analysis of dysfunctional and toxic personality traits. Righteous anger and love for the world should both play vital roles in this process of rewilding.
“Yea, it’s also a great way to avoid forming a positive and critical analysis of dysfunctional and toxic personality traits. Righteous anger and love for the world should both play vital roles in this process of rewilding.”
As long as you don’t permanently attach those dysfunctional and toxic traits to a person and end up unable to get past the labels you’ve saddled them with. This seems to involve a lot of assumptions on the part of the person doing the critical analysis.
Righteous, hmm, that word scares me. What does this righteous anger look like?
I think it’s safe to say that knowing where you do or do not belong, and choosing to move towards surroundings that speak to you, is a big part of what rewilding is all about. My choice not to get close to the people in my neighborhood isn’t a judgment or label I’ve placed on them, instead it is based on the observation that the way they live is part of the larger society that I have decided to reject, and for good reason. When I say “they have messed up priorities” (to use a real example) it’s because I’ve looked at the choices they’ve made and the culture they belong to and I see that it’s just more of the same old, same old, civilization dominating the land. If I don’t want to be a part of that “dysfunctional and toxic” way of life, it doesn’t mean that I hold any disrespect towards the individuals themselves. Of course they’re fellow human beings. But I get to choose which human beings I want to have closer to me in my life, and which ones I’d prefer more distance from. If I don’t make those distinctions then I won’t ever experience the difference between a civilized culture and a rewilding culture.
An excellent caveat to my remark. People change, sometimes, and we can’t let our own feelings of “I’m so primitiveXcore!” get in the way of correctly identifying if someone has ‘detoxified’.
Hmm, you’re right on that one. Maybe I should have used something clearer, less loaded? Justified anger? Constructive anger?
I’ve had ‘friends’ (if you can call those superficial relationships friendships) with whom this was an issue. They perpetuate just about every unhealthy, dysfunctional civilized mindset you can think of, and because of this I’ve slowly started to cut off ties when I can in an effort for a new “tribe”. I find, unfortunately, that the more time I spend with them, the more I hate them. Really hate them. I wish I could help change them, help them see how fucked up their lives and relationships are, but ultimately I can’t and I can’t torture myself trying. Cutting off these ties has been the only way I can keep myself from seething with hatred at them.
As for respect? I respect their right to be alive, but beyond that they haven’t done anything to earn respect. I don’t recommend giving respect when it isn’t earned. If, a year or five from now, I talk to them again and they’ve changed, then the situation will be a happier one.
I dunno… if I could go back in time over 100 years ago to the plains of North America and talk to a child in a reservation school, and if he said to me, “I hate the people who killed my relatives, I hate the people who took me away from my family, and I hate the people here at this school who are telling me what to think and how to speak and who are keeping me here against my will,” then I would think that his hate was an absolutely appropriate response. I would probably hate those people too just hearing his story. Hate’s just a really strong emotion, and I while I believe that people need to have solid reasons to hate someone or something, at the same time I don’t think that hate contradicts spirit or gets in the way of spirit.
My neighbors, I don’t know them well enough to hate them. Even if I got to know them, I probably wouldn’t hate them, I would probably just be really frustrated with them. And while I don’t disrespect them (as I said before), there’s not a lot about them that I respect either, beyond understanding that they have the right to exist and also that I can’t blame them for their way of life as it’s probably the only way they’ve ever known how to survive in society. A society which is toxic, hence their behavior is toxic in a lot of ways. If I can see that, then I’m not going to embrace it or support it.
Whoa, Selkie, your post disappeared… well, if you are still interested, my perspectives on hate, spirit, and toxicity is above.
I completely agree with this, I guess it’s just so hard for me myself to hang onto my feelings of hate without feeling unhappy and overwhelmed. I mean, I was driven by that same sort of anger for such a long time, being an activist for Genocide Awareness and such efforts. I’ve met those children, and it’s so hard to look at their situation and not completely be overtaken by hatred. However, when those children grow up with that anger and don’t learn how to forgive and heal their wounds, they grow up with festering anger that they dont know what to do with. If anything, when we are angry about those things we should use that as our power to try to make the world better from everyone. Not just run away and let the anger sit inside of ourselves. Sure we don’t have to pitch a tent with the “wrong do-ers” and share our efforts, but we can at least not hold onto our grudges towards them and see their humanity. I think life will give them what they need to learn and if they make wrong choices the universe will naturally consequence them. There’s no point in us holding negative energy because we are choosing something different. Heaven knows I would give everything for things to be different, for those children to not have to go through that, but I truly believe it is all meant to be and that we can’t change it, we can only learn from it and spread love and acceptance.
(Sorry, I kind of deleted my last post because I didn’t know if I was stepping on toes or not, and I certainly don’t want to make anyone feel wrong at all or anything. I mean, I just hope everyone reading this knows I don’t know any better than anyone else and I’m not claiming to know anything. Simply speaking from my heart and from experience of life. 
I’m wondering, can a person feel strong hate without making it the motivation for everything they do? I don’t really have a sure answer for that.
It’s really tragic that children, and lots of adults too, are put in situations where somebody or something is persistently hurting and abusing them. There is no easy answer to how they can deal with it in a way that will change the situation. If they can, of course, they need to find a way out. That’s why women’s shelters exist. But as long as it is going on, I wonder how much good forgiveness would do. It seems that it would just help perpetuate the cycle of abuse. When somebody is forgiven and given another chance but at the same time they aren’t being made to change their behavior… well, maybe forgiveness will help the person being hurt to have inner peace in the meantime, but it’s not a very sustainable approach.
After the person or people are out of the exploitative or abusive situation, then they can find a way to come to terms with it, and possibly even forgive the people who hurt them, or at least learn not to hold a grudge, so that they can get on with their lives without that festering hate. But as long as the hurt is going on, if they can change the situation, hate towards one’s abusers serves a lot of useful purposes. It can help the victims distance themselves from the abusers and avoid a kind of Stockholm Syndrome, and it can also motivate a strategy for direct action against violence.
I can’t remember exactly what you said in your last post, but I don’t remember getting the feeling that you were stepping on any toes… and I’m a very sensitive person. (It’s one of my ongoing “projects” to learn not to take everything so personally.) Your opinions and perspectives are just as valuable as everyone elses! If somebody counters a post of yours with an opinion to the contrary, as long as they’re not being snide or malicious, it probably just means that they want to explore the difference in opinion in a respectful way. That’s how things usually happen on this message board, I’m happy to say.
There are appropriate times, it seems, for anger, love, acceptance, and forgiveness. The key is not becoming consumed by hate, nor forgiving too easily.
I don’t believe forgiveness has to mean that you give someone another chance, I think forgiveness can have a much deeper power, especially personally. Like, if I can’t forgive others, how can I forgive myself? I think not forgiving can perpetuate problems into ones own life because one doesn’t forgive themself either.
Forgiveness works both personally (to the person forgiving) and to the forgiven person.
I also agree though and see that forgiveness has that power you mentioned. I don’t think forgiveness negates aggressive/hostile behaviour either.
After the person or people are out of the exploitative or abusive situation, then they can find a way to come to terms with it, and possibly even forgive the people who hurt them, or at least learn not to hold a grudge, so that they can get on with their lives without that festering hate.
Though, when people say ‘forgive and forget’, the forget part may help perpetuate the cycle as in “oh that won’t ever happen again”, or some other coping method, though if you really feel a person has made up to you in a way then I think the forget part may come in play to put trust back into the relationship.
[quote=“Fenriswolfr, post:32, topic:676”][quote]
After the person or people are out of the exploitative or abusive situation, then they can find a way to come to terms with it, and possibly even forgive the people who hurt them, or at least learn not to hold a grudge, so that they can get on with their lives without that festering hate.
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Though, when people say ‘forgive and forget’, the forget part may help perpetuate the cycle as in “oh that won’t ever happen again”, or some other coping method, though if you really feel a person has made up to you in a way then I think the forget part may come in play to put trust back into the relationship.[/quote]
Presumably, it wouldn’t happen again, because the people/person would have gotten out of the bad situation, for good. There wouldn’t be any chance to try to build trust with the violent people/person again. Sorry I didn’t make my thoughts clear.
I also think that forgiveness can be very dangerous - for example, women in abusive relationships. I think the only time it is beneficial is when the recipient of the forgiveness is no longer in the life of the forgiver (connected to them in any way). FIRST the aggressor (the person who would be forgiven) needs to be held accountable - i.e. the behavior that would be forgiven must first be stopped. Only then does forgiveness have a positive role to play, IMHO.
I guess I feel that the philosophy of forgiveness, turning the other cheek, etc is used (abused?) in our culture to enable the continuation of exploitation and violence. (As you can tell I am 100% NOT a pacifist ;)). I think it’s related to our cultural demonization of anger and as a “negative” emotion. While I’m not sure of the value of hate, contempt, etc (which seem to lead to objectifying/dehumanizing the “other” and therefore abuse, exploitation, and violence), I think anger is just as “positive” as love and compassion. It motivates people into action, provokes change.
I’m thinking about my own situation, as someone who is benefiting from civilization (materially, anyway). If my anger at civilization disappeared, I doubt I would do anything to change the world for the better. IOW, my anger is precisely what is driving me to take a stand.
The hard part is finding ways to act that are productive, that succeed in bringing about change. I think the problems start when people are angry but don’t know how to act on that anger.
let me be so bold as to say that jesus said he came to give life and for that purpose only did he come. if my purpose and jesus and gods and yours is the same then we are one. to then know you is knowing god thank you sheema shicceen