"I know what you MEAN"

Regenerative Culture Language & Oral Tradition
#1

In honoring He-Who-Moderates(Willems) request to tell a story, ask a question, or start a new topic, I would rather discuss with Silverarrow and others publicly, versus private messaging, how we can as a community more effectively communicate directly, allow the impersonal to be what is implicit (and what is entered into the Rewilding Field Guide), and make the personal more explicit. I feel making the personal more explicit is certainly challenging, but has the potential of a great tool in the shed for this community’s ability to move forward in finding others to Rewild with.

I don’t feel it is fair to simply ask people to do things for you, if you aren’t talking about a daily chore or some other one off behavior. I think it is only fair to open up a conversation with a question, belief, or statement of presumed fact and honor everyone’s response when asking people to change their behavior.

In facilitating new behavior, especially communicative behavior, I think keeping open the lines of communication is important.

Also, I don’t think it’s particularly useful, as a diverse, multi-cultural group, to assign broad meanings to symbols, including graphics, letters, symbols, handshakes, and the like. Our worst conversations have been around not necessarily what hurts people individually or culturally, but around the assumption and conversational fallacy “I know what you mean”

I would like this thread to be a starting point for the conversation. Personally, as someone who has jumped ship on multiple cultures, I’ve heard this phrase, implicitly, and explicitly, many a times.

As someone more focuses on Rewilding my mind, I feel like it is a major point of concern when I flash words or body signal symbols that elicit the “I know what you MEAN” response, as if I was still participating in mass media cultured response.

As a person of sound consciousness, I feel compelled by the spirits to share my concerns, thank you to all who may listen, especially Silverarrow, whom I feel has misunderstood me explicitly.

I feel lately in my work the power of the positive implications in which people who are very unlike each other work towards a common goal. I feel very lately in my work and life the isolation and halt in progress toward our personal goals when retreating to those who “know what we MEAN”.

#2

sounds fair to me.

i (believe) that i share some similar concerns.

of course, i don’t think that we can circumvent “I know what you mean”, in many ways, that’s the goal of communication. but it would be nice if we could invest a little more effort into verifying that “what I think you mean” is REALLY “what you mean”.

i know that this is often a very difficult medium to communicate in, which is tragically unfortunate, but since it’s the medium that we have… don’t we need to take that challenge seriously?

seems to me that assumptions & presumptions tend to be the biggest “pain” points here. that just seems doubly tragic to me.

#3

my biggest frustration in life that translates here is working with lots of socially conscious people who haven’t put it together for themselves what all that knowledge means to to them in their life. So they are stuck in a mode of deconstruction, which itself relies heavily on meaning in order to break down meaning.

Basically, I want to be a person of free expression, and I don’t appreciate having the burden of proof being put on me when creating the appearance of offense to the world of deconstructivist criticism. Because what could otherwise be fruitful friendships are nipped in the bud because I’m not hip on today’s lingo…

somewhere, inside of me, are the sproutings of a cranky old man! on no!

#4

lol

join the club, my friend, join the club ;D

i’ve been threatening to turn into a crotchety old fart for years now :wink:

do you think part of it is trying to find a balance between the two major thought patterns we’ve been handed to rely on? (meaning subjective vs objective)

or something else?

#5

TonyZ-

I want to provide you as much clarity as I can about this subject as it applies to moderation of rewild.info. I think it will at least help ‘getting along’, if not actually satisfy the needs you’ve expressed.

I will always err on the side of protecting a ‘safe space’ community here. Though (as a moderator) I welcome you, or anyone, to talk about any rewilding subject they please, when it comes to application, I will not make space for any offensive, insulting, inflammatory, or personally attacking posts. Defining that abstractly has many pitfalls. Fortunately, we only need ask and check in with folks here to see how the other person feels, in the here and now. We don’t have to worry about generalizing - we have another person on the other end of the computer who will happily respond quite specifically.

So you can speak about the theory of choosing not to take offense at other’s language, if you can do it in a way that you don’t offend folks or create a less welcoming space here.

This forum doesn’t exist for free expression. You do have the burden (though I have never felt it so, in my own conversations) of checking in with folks to make sure they feel heard and respected in your dialog with them.

I think as time goes on, many will find rewild.info lacking for a wide variety of purposes. goldenerasuburb wanted to talk about nanotechnology here. hoodie had a particular style of dialog that seemed to bring in odd statements about anuses. another fellow threatened someone here with physical harm.

From a moderation standpoint, these things just don’t belong here. They just don’t. I threaten some of my best friends with physical harm quite often. I don’t do it to unseen strangers on the internet.

If you ever feel constrained by this forum, I urge you to seek out another more appropriate forum to express that particular sentiment. You can then come back on over and offer up things that do belong here. We have a fairly straightforward definition of respect at rewild.info, that I won’t negotiate.

Many, many other forums on the internet provide a kind of ‘free expression’ outlet that may match what you want.

Little ol’ rewild.info just offers a safe place to tell our own stories, ask questions, with the agreement and expectation that we will interpet generously when we read posts here. I could see how this seems like offering up a kind of ‘free expression’, but the ‘safe’ part means that we sacrifice a lot of subjects and kinds of dialog for it, that we just have to tell somewhere else, either IRL to our friends and family, or on other forums.

To reiterate: though at times it may feel a burden, we will always ask folks here to save the most patient part of themselves for conversations on rewild.info.

If we ever meet at a Rewild Camp, and find ourselves of like spirit, then we can raise hell to our heart’s content.

#6

Yeah I agree with your sentiments very much so, I think I feel frustrated with myself and not understanding the expectation of others, and not being able to better understand our implied contexts.

Sometimes, explicit conversations harm others. For example, I feel doubly offended when getting the sense that I communicate poorly. Once, I feel hurt that I caused harm or offense to others, and second, I feel hurt that I appear insensitive to others.

And so sometimes, I recognize the fallout form putting things out there and sorting out the pieces later results in fewer people willing to participate in the conversation or problem solving, whereas I recognize that relying on our implied expectations can lead to unresolved issues.

In honor of Daniel Quinn, and for my own personal growth, I’d like to reach for that third handle, to understand and create for myself a conversation skill that doesn’t bash people over the head with my expectations, or leave others to understand the implied meaning.

I have recognized in others a particular skill like one I mentioned above, but still feel unsure as to why I am uncomfortable with people who navigate around points, and avoid conflict.

I think I could probably ask a more simple question…

what does it feel like to come from a place of wisdom?

#7

as someone who is prolly seen as having a tendency to “navigate around points, and avoid conflict”, sometimes you just need to let people do their thing, have their experiences and learn from the school of hard knocks.

i don’t mind pushing people towards the boundaries of their comfort zone, but sometimes it’s hard to know where someone’s boundary is, esp online.

as for the simpler question, well, i remember our discussion at Thanksgiving well enough to not claim a particularly high level of wisdom. :wink:

i know things are getting a little hot here right now, but take it easy on yourself. it’s fine to push your comfort zone, but there’s no need to go shooting past your boundaries and getting lost. remember, as with most things, communication is a process.

#8

I often have a hard time coming to a place where I think I know what you mean TonyZ. But even in some of your posts that have statements that I just don’t get, there is often a perspective that I find refreshing here. I think sometimes you are able to get right at a point, or an angle to look at something from, that many others have missed altogether. I think lot of people here, have a tendency toward defensiveness. Which of course is quickly aggravated by someone with an abrasive way of presenting their ideas. Consequently the focus shifts from the ideas being presented to the manner in which they are presented.

On a somewhat different note, I’ve got to admit, that I’m not a very creatively literate person. I’m somewhat of a slave to the conventions of English, so when people use words in unconventional contexts, neglect punctuation, or use it in creative ways, I struggle to find my way to the meaning of what they are saying. It’s like reading poetry. Which I’ve always struggled with.

I’ve been trying (TonyZ you’ve helped me with this) to read some posts, looking for a more overall feeling or message from the post instead of focusing on the details of it. Which is interesting, but I wonder if it is creating even more vague communication in a medium (internet forums)that already has many limitations.

Here I am, not quite sure if I’m completely off topic, on some goofy tangent or if I actually get it. I’m not saying this in support of anything that others have said or necessarily in direct response to anything specific that you have said in this thread. These are just things that I’ve felt and thought that I wanted to say to you.

I enjoy your posts. Sometimes I think whoa, he’s getting right at the nitty gritty now. Sometimes I think you are jumping to conclusions that might seem logical but also have a good chance of missing the mark. Even the most perceptive people (which I believe you are) benefit from being more reserved at times. Allowing things to unfold is often wise.

This is drifting into “unsolicited advice” territory so I better shut the fuck up now.

#9

thank you both for the support.

I personally have an open-door policy; I appreciate all advice, asked for or not asked for, because I think even my response to something I don’t like is a chance to learn and grow. I consider my responses fairly carefully now that I have committed to paying attention to indirect communication; of course, it has made me an even trickier coyote, as well :wink: I think the story we tell ourselves is so very apparent in every communication, and it’s great to be free from the small slights so that the deeper insight about a person place or thing can come to fruition.

I’m glad I am inspiring to your inner poet Billy, as I try to inspire my own inner poet. I feel like your humility at every step is such a deep compliment because you do seem to hear me, if the signal doesn’t come in clearly. It honors me that I am heard by someone with your caliber of listening, and it honors me that you are willing to try and understand me. I benefit from your attempts because you are one of the few people who I feel like are able to discern the shape of my speaking, and I am able to get really useful feedback from you that really does impact my daily life, So thank you!

There was a moment at an IshCon once that defined my whole life for me. I was showing a few people how to take apart a disposable camera, and the various “toys” there were to play with, light the flash capacitor as a metal engraver. well, after melting a chunk off a spoon, and shocking myself, a few people wanted me to touch the capacitor again and see how much it would shock me. there was a tense five minutes of ‘touch it tony’ and I really let the anticipation build. I touched the capacitor. nothing happened. I had already discharged the capacitor. and that to me, was the story of my life, hinting at some sort of amazing possibility in life, but when asked to perform the magic trick of transformation…

I like missing the mark, I like the process of continually trying, and I love the process of continually improving, continually firing way off base, and hitting the jackpot from time to time is rewarding, too :wink:

There’s just something in my makeup that seems to get off on trying, on reaching, on extension…

I do have a tendency to eat, shoot, & leave, don’t I ? (semi-obtuse literary world joke…)