How wild?

I have been wondering lately about this question.

Exactly what state of primitive living is people reffering to? do you want to live in relatively advanced society (bowdrills/pumpdrills, specialised tools, all the stuff that takes a long time to make)? or do you want to live totally primitive (picking up everything you need from the ground and throw it away when done with the task)?

also. would you prefer nomadic over permanent living or the other way around?

im sure there is different preferences so give your opinion.

(by the way this is my first post. so hello to everone. dont know if this was the right forum)

Since nobody has answered, I’ll give you a short one: yes!

Seriously though, it sounds like you need to turn around your ideas of primitive living. Have you checked out the introduction stuff yet? If you haven’t read through the primer, especially Jason’s “Thirty Theses”, and then maybe start perusing our technology forums.

i dont understand what you mean… i think my ideas about primitive living is pretty clear.

as i see it there is a hundreds of different ways to live primitive. i was simply wondering what people picture for themselves when they talk about living primitive.

It seems that you’re suggesting that technologies, both physical and technique, exist on some continuum of advancement, that one comes before the other and such. This isn’t necessarily the case. We use what is useful and efficient for us, not based on some imaginary ‘level’ of complication. I, personally, like my sumpak over a bow-drill. Others find bow-drills more useful for their situation. Some of us will be nomadic, some of us not so much. Tipis are great for the Plains region, wigwams and longhouses are good here in the New England area. Bioregional concerns and our own ingenuity will determine what we do or don’t do.

So, your title of “How wild?” looks past the point here. We’re going feral, and we’ll each do this in different ways, none of them preferred except what happens to prove useful.

What he said :).

Humans are tool using creatures, there’s nothing not wild about using tools. Bieng wild is adhering to what works, not some arbitrary standard. For me at least, thats the epitomy or re-wilding, reconnecting to you. Do what works and feel good, regardless of what arbitrary moral standards any society tries to impose. The fact is that civilization doesn’t work.

no, that is exactly not what i mean.

i know that we will use what we see fit. my question was simply what people imagine/hope will happen for them… what kind of life would be good in their region.

to matt: yes humans must use tools. but the whole problem with civilization is that we use higly advanced tools that recuires mass-production, mass-society, exploitation of earth and humans.
for each individual to have freedom tools must be quite simple.
fx in my country in the late stone age the people began mining for highquality flint. some of this was exported far away. for mining(production) to take place there must be a hierachy so the strong can force the weak to work. this is the whole concept of civilization.

my point is that tools must be simple or else we will se civilization come right back in only a few decades.

i hope you understand what i mean. its a little hard writing it all so it makes sense.

I’m not sure that this answers your question, but…

My family is trying to keep our plans fairly adaptable, by which I mean we’re shooting for something more along the horticultural side of the spectrum, but if the opportunity presents itself (and it probably will), we’ll go farther towards the hunter-gatherer side of the spectrum. At any rate, we’re looking at hunting & trapping (for meat & hides), fairly heavy use of wild plant foods/medicines, some light gardening and some “habitat enhancement” activities. I’d like to go relatively easy on firewood use whenever possible, so we intend on using a solar oven when we can. Traps can be made pretty simply w/o advanced materials, and there are several options for hunting tools (in fact, I think trying to make 2-3, maybe even 4 is a good idea; most hunter-gatherers that I know of used a variety of hunting weapons even if one was predominant). For this bioregion, wigwams make a lot of sense. I’m not ruling out cob, tho’, at least for the nearer future. I have a daughter and it’s easier to appease nosy busybodies w/ a cob house than with a wigwam. In terms of nomad vs sedentism, semi-nomadic would be our preference. You know, not moving all the time, but have a few areas that we move around between (granted, this is assuming we options beyond horitcultural living open up, otherwise, that’s not much of an option).

Just because you didn’t mean it doesn’t mean your query didn’t suggest it as a presumption. Using words like “advanced” and then referring to various technologies implies this, as well as your other alternative of “totally primitive” involving making nothing. It suggests the idea of a level of purity in primitivism having to do with having/using less. We’ve had a great discussion recently about the conflation of some ascetic ideas with primitivism, which I suggest checking out. It’s in the “Dealing with non-believers” thread.

If I’m wrong there, I of course apologize, but it warrants mentioning.

On to the real dialogue:

I’m not sure how much complexity of tools would necessarily cause a recreation of civilization. Plenty of civilized people have used far less complex tools than hunter-gatherers. Look comparatively at the bows used by Roman troops and those used against them by the Huns. The Huns used bows more complex than the civilized people. Bow-drills, involving many parts, have been used by so many primitive peoples, and the far less complex flint and steel was standard for so many civilized counterparts. Early agriculturalists used the same sort of digging sticks that some foragers use to dig up roots.

Obviously, there is a point of complexity we just would be unlikely to recreate primitively, like microprocessors. But physical technologies like this aren’t the main factor in deciding our primitive living. If you haven’t already, check out the forums on ‘invisible technologies’. A new understanding of things like social interactions, our relationships with the world, and how we should organize ourselves are far more essential to primitive living than how we decide to start a fire.

As for my preferences? I might be optimistic to think I’ll be stationary, or even semi-nomadic, but the area I live in is pretty abundant, even with all the civilized folk around. Wigwams seem like good housing, especially since I have experience building them already. I should be able to get a fair amount of food from fishing weirs, since there are several fishing areas in within a few miles, even within a quarter mile, and building a little weir is easy. And not surprisingly, these fishing areas have plenty of “nature’s supermarket”, cattails, which are a great food source as well as a source of fibers and other materials. There’s also plenty of game to be had, including much I can use torsion, snare, and deadfall traps to get, and plenty of turkeys and deer to hunt with my composite bows. I’m also a decent gardener, and plan to grow a decent amount of the Three Sisters, as well as tomatoes, potatoes, onions, garlic, chives, and a few other fruits, vegetables, and spices in small amounts. Am I missing anything? Well, that covers shelter and diet anyway. Those are the major technologies we tend to worry about.

well, words are just words. and english is not my native language so some things i want to say might be simplified… sorry for that.

you are right about the complexity of tools not necessarily causing civilization to come back. i think the problem might be more centered about complexity in the production. if the creation of certain tools need a group of people to concentrate their time on one task(fx finding a raw material), while another group concentrates on the next task(fx working with the material), then labor is divided and classes evolve. if every group(and actually every person) can make its own tools and food without being dependant on other groups, i believe that freedom would be much larger.

yes, going wild is definately a journey of mind as much as it is learning earth skills. but i think they are very closely connected. for me at least it gives me a strong sense of freedom to make my own things from scratch without using anything that requires mass-organization.

thanks jhereg and incendiary_dan for your replies. i find it very inspiring to know other peoples ideas. you know a group usually make better decicions than an individual.

Even division of labor won’t necessarily lead to class and hierarchy, and thus to civilization. Most traditional societies divided a number of jobs by gender, simply due to the fact that women were spent more time caring for children, thus making hunting (a slightly risky task) more common for men. Power was still relatively even, because no one person or group was allowed to consolidate the power and resources. That’s where the real key is: sharing.

My plans are simple. Residing in the Central Washington state area, where winters can get a little harsh, I intend to be semi migrational between 2 locations. Both near lakes. only 14 miles apart, but seperated by 4000 feet of elevation.
I plan to winter at the lower elevation in a combination A frame log cabin/debree hut with a complete fireplace etc., for the long winters, where
I plan to hunt, trap and fish.
At the upper elevation I will be more agri, primarily cultivating wild foods and hunting, trapping (no fishing since the lake doesnt have any fish in it) At this location I will use my teepee.

There are several others in the general area, one from this forum, and plan to trade when possible.

I will be alone, but that is how I prefer it. (I have a hand crank radio for outside news and information)

I may have to enter a small town about 26 miles away should I need any vital supplies that I did not expect, but I consider that unlikely, since I grew up semi ferel and already know the lifestyle.

I plan to use tools ranging from a modern sleeping bag and hand crank radio, to my buckskins. I have both a hand crank LED lantern, and 3 stone fat lamps. I make my own cordage, but also have modern cordage. I plan to raid the city dump in the town nearby I mentioned for copper wiring from
junked appliances for extra cordage, not to mention anything else I find useful.

My goal is to live a Waste Free lifestyle… not a caveman existance.

I consider my reusing “garbage” created by the civ ™ to be a positive contribution towards our mother.

I will only take what I need, give back whatever I can, and rescue the mother whenever the oppertunity presents itself.

I am not leaving EVERYTHING behind… just Civ ™.