How important is it to get out of debt soon?

Visions of the Rewilding Renaissance
#1

I’m looking for advice/opinion on this subject, mainly because I’m considering studying again this year (racking up more $ on my student loan).

Being a student this year would work out well for me in several different ways. First of all my girlfriend is moving over from Germany this year and understandably wants to see my country (New Zealand) so being on a student allowance will enable me to do plenty of travelling around while not having to worry about where the money comes from each week and not having a standard 30 or 40 hours a week where I have to be at a job somewhere. I can turn my BA into a BA with Honours in the process perhaps increasing my chances of getting a decent job where I can pay off my debt quickly afterwards. Studying is just way better than working a 9 - 5 job. It’s what my family wants me to do (not a good reason on it’s own I know) and my mum has hinted that if I do well my grandfather may put some money into paying off my student loan - this is certainly not a given though.

On the other hand though, I have read comments from people on this site and elsewhere stressing ‘get out debt’ as one of their pre-crash goals. To be honest economics isn’t my strong suit and I’m not sure how having debt might affect people when things really start to go downhill. If I’m not relying on civ to provide me with anything I need to live by the time that happens would it even matter if I’m in debt? I suppose if things got really draconian as civ starts to crash I might get punished or forced into work on the basis of my debt? I don’t really know…

With oil passing $100 a barrel and all the talk of a credit crunch and a troubled US (and apparently therefore global) economy, I’m starting to feel slightly nervous about my student loan and wondering whether studying again this year would be a bad idea. Perhaps I should spend the year trying to earn some money to pay off some debt instead of adding more debt on?

If anyone has any words of advice for me or an opinion to share on the topic in general I’d love to hear it.

-Tom

#2

Well, I personally don’t like to have debt because it would force me to get a job and all the misery that induces. Eventually you will have to get a job to pay it all off. As far as getting a better job, I think a lot of that depends on the job market in your area. An entry level position will pay about the same no matter how many degrees you have. Of course you could bank on the possibility of melting away into the woods before you have to pay it off, but it seems a little iffy to me.

#3

In about 1976 I started making most of my major decisions based on the idea that civilization couldn’t possibly last much longer. So now it’s 32 years later.
I would definitely not wrack up debt based on the idea that the collapse of civilization would save me from having to repay that debt.

I have lived my life avoiding debt at almost any cost. Having no debt has a cost. You have to be willing to do without things that other people seem to take for granted. BUT it can be a path to personal freedom as well.

As with just about everything else, only you can decide if the debt is worth the benefit you will get.

#4

If things actually crash quickly, debt wont matter at all. I however don’t think things will suddenly crash, and if they do, I will be pleasantly surprised. Fighting off collections sounds like a major bummer, I’d rather avoid it just in case this civilization limps along past my life time.

#5

I hate being in debt, I mean, I’m going to college right now which is really putting me in debt… so my plan is to pay it off asap after college, and then uhh… who knows, hopefully ‘retire’.

#6

I’ve never quite understood the people who say “I need to get out of debt before civilization collapses.” I mean, if it really goes away then the debt will disappear with it. This strategy is only helpful if one “owns” “things” like land or a vehicle or whatever and don’t want it taken away during a crisis. Except that during a crisis the government may just take whatever you have anyway. There’s a very small window where it will matter, where the owning class is willing to kick people out on the streets, but not willing to out and out steal from people.

That said, debt sucks and I’d want to get out ASAP regardless. The only reason I’d go into most debt is because I thought the collector would collapse before it collected.

#7

I think it’s less, “I need to get out of debt before civilization falls apart,” than, “I need to get out of debt, so I can get into the virtuous cycle and rewild, before civilization falls apart.”

Civilization falling apart is going to take place over a much longer timeline than anybody’s debt will matter, and though civilization’s power may soon barely reach to their own city limits, I’ll bet dollars to doughnuts that the very last thing that will go, will be the debt collectors.

#8

That’s the way I’ve come to see things. Count me as one tally mark in favor of your hypothesis. :slight_smile: Once my debt is paid off, I’ll gain certain kinds of freedom that I haven’t enjoyed before, and I’ll be able to do more with that freedom.

#9

There seems to be an underlying pattern of thought that has the collapse of civilization as the foundation for deciding on a path.
At one time I followed this pattern but over time I came to realize that the world view and way of life that this path lead me to actually could stand on it’s own whether civilization collapsed or not. Simply put it’s just a healthier, happier way to live life.
I’ve come to think that “civilization collapsing” is almost a tangent or distraction with pitfalls that can keep people believing they’re trapped until that comes to pass.
How many events have people put their faith in waiting for change to come?
Planetary alignments, harmonic convergences, Y2K, prophecies, calendars, 2012, nuclear holocausts, earthquakes, now climate change. So many people seem to be looking for the return of the “Saviour” in the form of these events like a Biblical cleansing to make their rewilding a reality. Meanwhile???

#10

I agree, collapse or not I don’t care. If it keeps on ticking for ever so what? It’s not how I want to live.

#11

if you have to go into debt have an escape plan.

#12
I've come to think that "civilization collapsing" is almost a tangent or distraction with pitfalls that can keep people believing they're trapped until that comes to pass.

Here here!

Thanks for the link to the virtuous cycle, Jason!

#13

Another way to trap or distract yourself is to equate “civilization” with “humanity at large.” That one will trap you in all sorts of ways…

But it’s also important to recognize civilization as a stage in (most of) humanity’s history. We all have to accept what we have learned from it, and not dismiss it. To dismiss it and say it never should have happened is akin to an individual dismissing what s/he has learned from life’s mistakes.

#14

I don’t know, I don’t see the collapse as a tangent to rewilding per se, They’re more like dance partners. Yes, we rewild because it’s healthier, happier, and more free. And civilization sucks. But partly because civ sucks it willcollapse. And the further it collapses the more opportunities we’ll have to rewild, and the more we rewild the less we feed into the system, hastening it’s collapse. And the skills we have as rewilders,and the cultures we create will allow us to handle collapse better, and that will attract people who weren’t interested back when they could afford both cheap junk food AND gas for their car. And they will bring other knowledge and allow us to practice more community building.

This is how we want to live anyway, even if there was a magically sustaiable civ. But thankfully there isn’t, and it will make things much easier in the long run.

I don’t think debt collecters will be the last thing to go. I think the last thing to go will be the miitary, and if they feel like it they will seize your assets regardless of your debt level.

#15

The most devastating thing you can do to the system imo,
don’t go into debt.
Hell, limit your spending as much as possible, but most importantly, don’t go into debt.

The system lives and feeds of debt, loans, mortgage, etc. That’s how it grows, if you don’t feed it…

#16

Worse yet for the system–not even using the currency. Barter really screws with the machine. I hear lots of areas use local currencies, these days, too.

#17

Which ones?

#18

Voila!

#19

Lots of good discussion here, I’ll just reply to a few things…

Heyvictor, I certainly think rewilding is a worthy goal, crash or no-crash. However I do feel time pressing on me a bit. I don’t know when or how things are going to go down but a lot of factors seem to be converging now. I don’t know if I can ignore the looming crash of civilization in my planning. Left to my own devices I might really take my time with learning primative skills and getting out of debt but I can’t help but feel like it might be prudent for me to consider how collapse might effect my efforts in the not too distant future.

Jason, I see your point. By the way, I enjoyed your recent piece on the subject on anthropik.

Getting into debt is not something I like to do, I feel it weighing on my mind to be quite honest. So I certainly don’t plan on wracking up debt indefinately. Studying this year does seem like it might be quite beneficial in some ways I just can’t decide if it’s worth adding more to my debt. For the time being I have enrolled to study again this year. I have until March 7 to decide if I want to pull out. I’m not sure what I’ll do yet.

Well, I have enjoyed reading everyones thoughts on the matter (sorry, I didn’t participate more in the thread I started - I wanted to but was rather busy over the last month). Now I am off to go camping for a week with my girlfriend in some beautiful New Zealand bush. :slight_smile: