How do you guys and gals feel about the fact that in indigenous cultures this stuff was pretty well set? I just made a drum yesterday but in many tribes I would not be allowed to play a drum as a female. At the Faithkeepers School a Seneca elementary/highschool near my house they teach the traditional ways (sort of, their influenced by the christian-native hybrid Longhouse Religion). This means only girls are taught cooking and only boys can play or even watch the snowsnakes game. In some ways I would hate this. But in other ways it would certainly make things easier. For example now each of us abos pretty much learns all the skills. I learn hunting, boys learn gathering and cooking. If I had men or anyone else to depend on I could concentrate more on one skill, but I can’t because I don’t have a tribe and I wouldn’t trust a boyfriend and I or a primitivist collective to stay together. So I learn everything. I really like plants, but sometimes I wish it wasn’t my speciality. It’s so typically girly. Most herbalists are women, most of the articles by women written in journals like the Society of Primtive Technology Bulletin are about plants. Sometimes I wish I were a fierce hunter or warrior. Besides I happen to like loincloths.
I say lets take that step forward in creating renaissance people, those who do it all.
What value ‘making things easier’?
‘Because tribes did it’ could excuse every human behavior under the sun.
Without solid answers, I hesitate to say something ‘is’ something, but I believe the human culture evolves, and geography once had a lot to say about the pace…
Kennewick man, one of the oldest skeletons found in North America, was of Pacific Rim descendency, not of Siberian descendency. He was found with a spearpoint lodged deep into his hip. I don’t think he fell accidentally on his hunting spear.
I bring this up because we must remember that humanity walks social lines. Sometimes we take steps forward, sometimes we take steps back.
If things ‘work’ then when change it?
Division of labor ‘works’ but doesn’t lead me to conclude that it must be done.
I think the only wait to treat the genders as equals is to expect them to know of similiar things, and allow specialization to happen, to trust that it will, rather than order it.
Having not been there, I can’t judge that it was a good idea or not when the story was first told that man does this, or than woman does that.
What I can say is that I value female and male friendships equally.
I think a deeper question is how do we address our feelings of sexuality in a healthy way?
I think the more mixed and the more comfortable the sexes are, the more difficult marraige and monogamy are to enforce.
After all, the division of the sexes are all pre-birth control, but also, pre-HIV. funny how that worked out.
The universe is making us be very careful, to set up systems, to deal with our sexuality, one way or another.
Obviously, I have no way of proving this conclusively (esp at a universal level), but I really don’t think that indigenous cultures enforce gender separations so much as they allow them.
If you’d like a historical reference, check out Nonhelema (aka Grenadier Squaw) of the Shawnee.
Just my 2 cents…
This will seem tangetial at first, but bear with me.
THe other day some comedians from Baton Rouge LA came to hang out before a show. It was two black guys and a white chick. We got to talking about skits and such and alot of the ideas we all put out really clicked. We had some good ideas and planned on shooting soon. As we were trying to finalize, one of the guys says “Ya’ll don’t have a problem working with black folk, do ya?”. I was literally astounded that he would ask that. So I thought for a moment and said “Are you human? The only question i really care about is Can you Hang? That is all that matters” They liked it and we cemented a working relationship.
As far as I am concerned, that is all that matters. Can you hang? Can you do it(it being whatever you are talking about, be it martial arts, origami, gardening or hot pepper eating).
Don’t let anyone say you can’t do it b/c you are a chick. That’s BS. some real life examples :The most limber, stealthiest dude I know is 5’6" and weighs 450lbs. Dude can do a standing split(i.e make his legs make a 180 deg angle on a wall.) He can run across broken glass silently(probably a bit of an exxageration but…) holds a black belt in Tae Kwon Do and a red sash is Jeet Kun Do.
The strongest person I know is a female rubgy player. She can lift 200lbs logs easily, and is only 5’3" to 5’5". I can barely do 125 lbs.
I agree with Tony, why not take it upon ourselves to be, and to raise renaissance men and women. That’s what i’ve tried to be all my life.
To comment on the actual topic, i.e. cemented gender roles and specializiations in indigenous tribes, I don’t really care enough to think about it, b/c I am not “indigenous”. I think any human can do anything any other human can do, end o story.
R
Thank you for your thoughts. While I’m all for be allowed and able to do everything, I just don’t know if there is time for me to learn it all in the end. I am interested in examples that are not the norm. I have read several novels that featured women warriors and effeminate men, but I haven’t read any anthropological accounts that do yet. I do imagine that such a person would not have been nearly as hated as they are today.
I think this topic relates to a hatred I have for custom and etiquette. Putting your napkin on your lap, knowing how to set a table. People who insinuate I should know and practice that kind of stuff infuriate me beyond reason. I’ve often been accused of being uncivilized, yet I’ve always felt that I didn’t want to be an Indian, not really, because I felt their taboos and social rules just seemed so stifling. Perhaps it is these things that give people an identity and make them belong, but I’m all for doing away with customs that no longer serve a function or whose function, like table manners, only serves to separate people, for example, differentiate the upper class from the dregs. I want to shake with my left hand. I want to lick my plate clean in a restaurant. I want to wear a bikini to the mall and go barefoot in the grocery store. AHHH!
Penny wrote:
I want to wear a bikini to the mall and go barefoot in the grocery store. AHHH!
move to Florida. i saw a guy grocery shopping in speedos in Panama City Beach
Hi Penny,
One thing I usually keep in the back of my mind: “Could I do [insert activity] while pregnant/postpartum/nursing/mothering?” I think perhaps gender roles and division of labor stem mostly from who gives birth and cares for children.
If a woman chooses not to have children (or she cannot), then I see no reason why she cannot be a warrior/hunter/etc. But, I do think division of labor makes sense when it comes to reproduction. Perhaps some women can care for children while others hunt and trap, etc.
Of course, men have an important role to play in raising children, too. The main limit for them is not being able to nurse 24/7, well not at all — babies just need to be with Mom most of the time, I think.
I hear what you are saying about needing to “learn it all”. Women in our position need to be able to support ourselves in every way, because we have no rewilded tribes yet.
This time of transition will mean different things for different women, and in the future, everything will look different once again. Changing, shifting, transitioning… each tribe adapting to their place and their evolving culture.
That’s a good point Dandelion. I think that some of these questions get answered also in the thread on homosexuality where there is a discussion of the two-spirit people.
I feel like gender roles are going to define themselves out of each local tribe’s member’s talents.
In my group of friends, there are quite a few plant-lore guys, so foraging and gathering definitely wouldn’t be male-exclusive. Who knows, in several generations, it may get codified into a tradition that only men can gather plants. But in this generation, as the civ goes down and the feral rise, we’ll all just be doing whatever we can do. That’s why I’m grateful that I don’t have to learn everything–even though I want to learn as much as possible.
I love plants, but I love cooking even more. And gardening, and cooking. So… I may not end up being the best hunter.
any division of labor should be based on skill, interest, and ability. it should have nothing to do with gender.
tru that.
Where I live we say, “tru dat.” Same thing. Oh, and yes, I totally agree.
Tru that, tru dat - different strategies for every bioregion
well, i see this thread hasn’t received any posts in a while, so i think i’ll change that.
yeah, this line of thinking went through my mind as well after i started thinking about gender-based “division” of labor in traditional tribal cultures. unfortunately i don’t have the greatest amount of background in anthropology, so i can’t cite anyone’s research on this. but given the generally straightforward and pragmatist approach to problemsolving present in most primiitive cultures, it would make most sense that women typically didn’t/don’t engage in hunting activities because of the biological roles they fill in carrying children to term and nursing them thereafter. given the awesome amount of time and energy necessary to care for (especially very, very young) children, i can understand why these cultures might come to an informal agreement that “men do hunting activities most of the time, and women do foraging activities most of the time.”
i would guess–though i can’t speak with certainty on this-- that primitive cultures probably do have more crossover on this than most textbooks by ivory tower academics tend to portray, but that would fall distinctly into the realm of speculation on my part. still, i can’t see any reason why a woman in a traditional tribal culture who decides not to have children, prefers women, can’t bring a child to term, etc. wouldn’t be welcomed by one of the hunting parties in the tribe should she decide to pursue that path.
anyway, those are my thoughts as far as they go.
The hammer swings, and the nail sinks.
I hate it when people imply that I ought to do things like “the native people of this land” use to. I always say something along the lines of, “the native people of this land practiced slavery and human sacrifice, we aren’t going to do that either.”
I interact with a group of about 7-10 people while engaging in hunting/gathering type stuff. The last thing we do is rely on gender to divide responsibilities, and eveything gets done anyway, and fast. In most groups of friends I think there will be enough of a difference in skills and prefered tasks that things work themselves out.
[quote=“TrollSplinter, post:16, topic:114”]The hammer swings, and the nail sinks.
I hate it when people imply that I ought to do things like “the native people of this land” use to. I always say something along the lines of, “the native people of this land practiced slavery and human sacrifice, we aren’t going to do that either.”
I interact with a group of about 7-10 people while engaging in hunting/gathering type stuff. The last thing we do is rely on gender to divide responsibilities, and eveything gets done anyway, and fast. In most groups of friends I think there will be enough of a difference in skills and prefered tasks that things work themselves out.[/quote]
Rock on! Speak your truth. I couldn’t agree me. White people make a mockery of indigenous ways when they adopt traditions willy-nilly, without thought.
[EDIT: I meant to say “I couldn’t agree MORE”. Jeez. What the hell does “I couldn’t agree me” mean? Criminy.]
[EDIT: I meant to say "I couldn't agree MORE". Jeez. What the hell does "I couldn't agree me" mean? Criminy.]
Haha. I thought you had gotten all E-Primitive on my ass but that I was too civilized to get your meaning.
The hammer swings, and the nail sinks. I hate it when people imply that I ought to do things like "the native people of this land" use to. I always say something along the lines of, "the native people of this land practiced slavery and human sacrifice, we aren't going to do that either."I interact with a group of about 7-10 people while engaging in hunting/gathering type stuff. The last thing we do is rely on gender to divide responsibilities, and eveything gets done anyway, and fast. In most groups of friends I think there will be enough of a difference in skills and prefered tasks that things work themselves out.
I think it comes down to syncretism. I did not grow up as a native person of this land. I want some of what they had that allowed their life to work on this land, but my cultural situation would not work with a lot of the other things they had (like the aforementioned slavery and human sacrifice). I can take heart from the fact that they might have had more than a binary gender concept, but that doesn’t even mean that I need to necessarily adopt their concepts of gender identity.
White people make a mockery of indigenous ways when they adopt traditions willy-nilly, without thought.
Exactly. We may find some concepts there that we would like to adopt, but we have to examine how it will work with our current mindset.
Yeah whitey’s are a funny lot, especially the wo-wo’s. People that take the most sacred ritualistic elements of indiginous cultures from a people that would be disgusted by the way we live, Bull*hit. So unthoughtful.
(What’s a wo-wo?)