Finding/creating a TRIBE

Regenerative Culture Relationships, Partnerships & Sexuality
#16

[quote=“Urban Scout, post:15, topic:513”]haha.

Yeah, I agree with you. I generally use the word family.

But even in a family, not everyone supports you and you can’t count on everyone and there may be people you don’t like even. I think the same is true for tribes. or bands even. I don’t need to get along with everyone in my family, just enough to feel supported.[/quote]

Yeah, I agree with you. I definitely don’t agree with my family members’ view points on a lot of things, but the things we do agree on and interests shared is what makes me want to learn things from them, and work on projects with them, like gardening and such, which my parents know a lot about. But I have different techniques that I want to use, and they are more set in their ways of doing things like they always have…

That's one of the reasons why I don't like the word tribe, because I think most people assume that you have to agree with everyone and get along with everyone, or that you have to work with everyone who agrees with you. For example, there are lots of people in Portland who more or less want to rewild. But I think a lot of those people are assholes. Just because we are a rare breed, us-who-rewild, I assumed that I had to work with them. This always ended badly. Now-a-days I just work with people I work well with. Every time I started a "tribal business" it failed. As soon as we stopped seeing the businesses as tribes, but ships in a harbor, things started clicking. For example, a few ships in my harbor of Portland rewilding are TrackersNW and Mythmedia. TrackersNW is not my ship, but I can sail it once and a while to make some money. TonyD mostly takes care of the ship and takes it out on his own missions from time to time. I caretake the mythmedia ship, which I rarely take out but others have. What I have is a core group of friends who I love and who support each other, though sometimes we can't work together on particular projects, we support each other. Sometimes we sail together, sometimes we let each other sail our ships, sometimes we go to another friend of ours ship who has nothing to do with anyone else.

Not neccessarily, but I understand your concern. I don’t think that everyone immediately assumes that to be a “tribe” or “family” forces all involved to share the same view points and think and act alike. I can definitely understand what you are saying, and in extreme cases that does happen, but those are the groups that you want to stay away from. I think that the most important thing about any group of people that are working towards something collectively is that each and every person brings some different talent, experience, resource, creativity, or skill to the group so that it’s diverse and multi-functional. that way you have several different view points and experiences to draw from when making decisions or planning things, or getting a job done.

The problem I think lies in defining the tribe. Where does the tribe start and where does it end? Like families, where do they start and end? Your cousin has a set of cousins who are not related to you at all. While your cousins are part of your blood family, your cousins cousins are not. Even a family you can't readily define because each individual has a different relationship with everyone in the family and beyond.

A hunting band on the other hand, you can define. A crew on a ship, you can define. A team you can define. Because they are a core of people temporarily taking on a job. Everyone has a role in some sense or another to accomplish something.

Team, band and crew all have that temporary feeling that says, “if it doesn’t work, walk away.” Whereas the words “Tribe and Family” carry a kind of wieght that says, “Sorry, your stuck with us forever.”

A pitfall I have made (along with many other friends of mine) was to pick a handful of people and think of them as my “tribe.” That I couldn’t work with anyone on anything outside of the tribe, etc. But where do you limit the growth of it? What if I want to bring my whole family into the tribe? What if everyone wants to bring their whole family? Where does the line end and begin?

I don’t know. I don’t think you can draw a line around a family or a tribe or in cold, hard mechanical terms; :wink: a socio-economic network.

True, it could get tricky if you try to define something like this to come up with one simple explanation or definition. Ideas like this need to be flexible and ever changing just like people that are involved… I see what you are saying about a family and being “stuck with” it (I do not do well in situations where I feel like I don’t have a choice or am not free to do my own thing because of other people’s rules, needs, or wants… and I definitely feel frustrated when I can’t do things I want because of obligations I may feel to a certain group or individual.), whereas non-relations are easier to remove yourself from, or take a different route if you need to. I think I am beginining to understand the tribe idea you have given examples of. And I think it’s a good example of the type of thing that I am feeling I need in my life, as I really don’t have anyone close by to share interests with outside of family. I am still trying to separate the important aspects of family vs. tribe relations and activities and differences… maybe if I knew more about social structures or something… do you have any books or something I could look into? I do admit that I dislike textbook-style books, and find it really boring… but I would like to investigate certain family and tribe structures to get a better understanding.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I spent years forming and failing at creating tribes until one day I gave up and realized that I was already part of a tribe; the network of family and friends and their family and friends and so on. And that all I had to do was learn to encourage and support a culture of rewilding among those people.

As far as making a living goes, everyone in my family and close friends chips in to help each other out. Where the money/food/support comes in doesn’t necessarily come from us working together (sometimes) but that we form our own bands to make money and than distribute it among our own networks or families.

Does that make sense to anyone? Please help me, I’m still working these ideas out of my head.

I think that happens alot, though, you don’t realize what you have around you is what you need until you try to find it somewhere else, and then come back to the realization that you already had it… which makes you appreciate it that much more.

#17

[quote=“Urban Scout, post:15, topic:513”]A hunting band on the other hand, you can define. A crew on a ship, you can define. A team you can define. Because they are a core of people temporarily taking on a job. Everyone has a role in some sense or another to accomplish something.

Team, band and crew all have that temporary feeling that says, “if it doesn’t work, walk away.” Whereas the words “Tribe and Family” carry a kind of wieght that says, “Sorry, your stuck with us forever.”[/quote]

Well, in a very large and general sense, I think that a tribe could be defined as a “team”, not for any specific task but for helping each other carve out the best possible life. And yeah, you kind of are stuck with a tribe forever, because how would you survive on your own, especially as you advance in age? I guess you could defect to another tribe, if possible.

I think a person could accurately claim (and yeah, if you’re wondering, I’m making that claim) that you can define a distinct boundary around “traditional” tribes to describe who belongs and who doesn’t. They have common shared spaces for sleeping, eating, ceremonies, etc. - as well as shared mental spaces (culture and knowledge and so forth).

The question is whether it is possible and/or desireable to form a tribe in that traditional sense, or whether you want to (or have to) form a “tribe” using a redefinition of the word. It’s a tricky word, and personally I’d rather use it to describe the “traditional” social unit, but everyone’s going to assign it their own meaning, so I keep that in mind.

#18

Just a little bit of info here. I know people who are enrolled members of “tribes” who are not entirely comfortable with the word tribe because of some of the baggage that the word carries.

#19
I think a person could accurately claim (and yeah, if you're wondering, I'm making that claim) that you can define a distinct boundary around "traditional" tribes to describe who belongs and who doesn't. They have common shared spaces for sleeping, eating, ceremonies, etc. - as well as shared mental spaces (culture and knowledge and so forth).

The question is whether it is possible and/or desireable to form a tribe in that traditional sense, or whether you want to (or have to) form a “tribe” using a redefinition of the word. It’s a tricky word, and personally I’d rather use it to describe the “traditional” social unit, but everyone’s going to assign it their own meaning, so I keep that in mind.

Well said, that is also the definition I have in mind, and that’s how I lived with the Bedouin. We slept next to each other often sleeping only a foot or two away from each other around the fire. We ate together, shared celebrations and daily life and feasts and went hunting together, herding camels, selling goats, drinking tea and visiting Bedouin families in the desert. I mostly stick to a smaller closer circle of families over there yet I am friendly with most of the other members of the tribe and while the feasts and daily social interaction usually involve this smaller circle for the most part they do commonly include members of the larger tribe fairly often.

Daily social interaction is characterized by the sharing of necessities (food/water/clothing/shelter/etc) and the genuine concern for each other as human beings. This is worthy of note because I find it non-existent and lacking among other social groups in other countries in general. The extended family is the basic social unit and has not been undermined to the extent it has been in N. America and much of Europe. Individualism and the nuclear family are not very common and thus it’s hard to draw parallels with the social scenes here and there, as it’s so different. I’ve been accepted into the community life of a tribe over there and the locals refer to me as a member of Suleiman’s family, granted it’s not stone-age hunting gathering clan life but it meets my socio-economic needs.

I feel pretty blessed and thankful to have the extensive social support network that I have over there and I surely miss it whenever I am away from the area, I also feel the inevitable social and economic obligations to certain people over there which comes with being a part of a clan-based social group. Honestly though, I would rather have those obligations and have that extended family closeness and “social security” and life than not have it and be free of all obligations and alienated and alone to fend for myself vis-a-vis alien social groups and alien economic structures as is the norm for N. America and Europe. There are some health issues which result from my carelessness when I’m in the village in regards to water but these are solved when I take the proper precautions.

So when it comes down to it, I feel that I have already found my “tribe” so to speak with my small circle of brothers and their families in S. Jordan. I have come close to them in ways that I have never come close with people here in N.America. It’s convinced me that kinship and tribal-type social relations are not relegated to the historical past or novels like Lord of the Rings, but they are possible here and now and what I want for my children as well as other people and myself.

I think it would be neat if people could connect in a similar way in N. America or Europe or what not but I think most people just don’t have the social background to allow them to do so. I think cultural conditioning has more of an impact than most people would like to believe, I hope that does change and more people can create more clan-based social relations.

#20

I’m glad you jumped in with your experience Sandwalker. Many “tribal” people here in N. America also have adoption rituals for adopting new people into their family. In my experience these are not just token gestures to honor someone. When someone is adopted, they become a member of the family with the privileges and responsibilties that come with it. They get the support of the family and in turn it’s expected that they will support the other members in whatever way they can.

It’s hard for mainstream N. Americans to imagine this and it would be hard for me to imagine a bunch of people coming together and being able to really embrace this way of relationship. When an individual gets to experience a family extending this support during a difficult time and is brought into the family not only in a ceremonial way but in a real everyday kind of way, a lot of our old cultural conditioning can fall away.

#21

[quote=“heyvictor, post:20, topic:513”]I’m glad you jumped in with your experience Sandwalker. Many “tribal” people here in N. America also have adoption rituals for adopting new people into their family. In my experience these are not just token gestures to honor someone. When someone is adopted, they become a member of the family with the privileges and responsibilties that come with it. They get the support of the family and in turn it’s expected that they will support the other members in whatever way they can.

It’s hard for mainstream N. Americans to imagine this and it would be hard for me to imagine a bunch of people coming together and being able to really embrace this way of relationship. When an individual gets to experience a family extending this support during a difficult time and is brought into the family not only in a ceremonial way but in a real everyday kind of way, a lot of our old cultural conditioning can fall away.[/quote]

Good points heyvictor.

It’s also hard for me to imagine a bunch of people coming together in N. America and being able to embrace this way of relationship, yet I am glad you brought it up because I think people need to take it into consideration if they want to build or create functional, healthy clan-like social groups. I also agree that cultural conditioning can fall away when one is included in the everyday life of an extended family/clan-like social group.

Banding together with a crew or a job for a temporary econcomic purpose and then disbanding is one thing, but does that really meet the social and economic needs of the people involved? I would say partly, from my personal experience.

It’s not what I would call “living in a tribe” however. I don’t see anything wrong with it, though. I have to wonder , are more people interested in just temporary teamwork or getting together once in a while or are they interested in creating and living in long-term tribes where daily life is shared and eventually you would like to have children and a wife or husband, and where you have to deal with each other’s issues from time to time, and where there are real concrete obligations and responsibilities to each other.

I also have to wonder if people are waiting for the ideal “tribe” to emerge and then they will go and join that one. There is no ideal social group, even the most egalitarian h/g society had it’s share of the good and the bad, so it might help to lower our standards a little and make a go of it with people here and now. Obligations and social responsibility are really not so bad as some people may think. It’s hard for me to explain but the benefits far far outweigh any hurdles that come along the way.

The test of true friendship or brotherhood comes in the times of need and when there are problems and hard times. It’s during those times when you find out who your real friends are and who aren’t.

#22

emily,

i understand how you feel. my partner and i grew up in the south spent a few years in the pacific northwest and returned “home” to where land is cheaper.

so here’s our delimma:

is it better for the kids to grow up outdoors (in the woods, on acrege, playing in the creek, etc) but in an area that is 99% southern baptist, homophobic, patriotic, etc. so they have no friends (except for the squirrels and frogs)

or is it more important to grow up in a “progressive” city where they can be themselves and wont be ashamed to be “different” and have like-minded friends, but with no wilderness?

perhaps this should be a whole new thread.

ps- if your in southern ohio you should check out gene logsdon!

#23

In the South?

AUSTIN.
Athens, GA
Savannah
Chapel Hill
Charlottesville

(off the top of my head)

Generally, university towns are more socially open to those who think like us.

#24

I really don’t think these stereotypes of rural people are worthwhile in any way. I’ve lived as a fairly extreme alternative person in rural areas. Some of the redneckiest around actually, for 30 years. Rural people are for the most part salt of the earth kind of people with much less in the way of pretentiousness.
They know a lot of the things that ya’ll would like to know and a lot of them learned it from their parents who learned it from their parents. They got that knowlege from an unbroken line of people who had it. Not from a book or the internet.
They grow big gardens, they share with their neighbors, they hunt and fish, and they know how to take care of themselves and their families and animals.
A lot of the guys I knew could take a cutting torch and a pile of old cars and make anything you want out of it.
They taught me all about wood, and hunting.
If you can drop your own pretentiousness and relate on a human to human level. If they see that you are there with the same struggles and things to deal with as them, most of the rural people I know are pretty “live and let live” when it comes to politics and religion, unless you shove it in their face all the time.

It sounds like the stereotypes and prejudice that you are carrying around are gonna keep you living in a city because of an imagined fear of country folk.

#25

[quote=“heyvictor, post:24, topic:513”]I really don’t think these stereotypes of rural people are worthwhile in any way. I’ve lived as a fairly extreme alternative person in rural areas. Some of the redneckiest around actually, for 30 years. Rural people are for the most part salt of the earth kind of people with much less in the way of pretentiousness.
They know a lot of the things that ya’ll would like to know and a lot of them learned it from their parents who learned it from their parents. They got that knowlege from an unbroken line of people who had it. Not from a book or the internet.
They grow big gardens, they share with their neighbors, they hunt and fish, and they know how to take care of themselves and their families and animals.
A lot of the guys I knew could take a cutting torch and a pile of old cars and make anything you want out of it.
They taught me all about wood, and hunting.
If you can drop your own pretentiousness and relate on a human to human level. If they see that you are there with the same struggles and things to deal with as them, most of the rural people I know are pretty “live and let live” when it comes to politics and religion, unless you shove it in their face all the time.

It sounds like the stereotypes and prejudice that you are carrying around are gonna keep you living in a city because of an imagined fear of country folk.[/quote]

Well, I’ve done both - rural and urban. Heyvictor, I agree with you about tradition and self-sufficiency, but not so much about the religion-politics aspect. I don’t shove any of my opinions in others’ faces, but I found that once certain (not all) people got an inkling of how “out there” my beliefs were they felt a need to indoctrinate me or take the moral “upper hand”. When I resisted letting their words sink in, they got more aggressive. Maybe we have had different experiences in that respect because I was young and more moldable and therefore more vulnerable.

And, I never felt appreciated on an intellectual level in a rural setting. There are tight communities, sure, but those communities often serve goals that I don’t really share. Yes, they’re not dense cities, but they’re still missing something that doesn’t make them whole. Usually it’s a kind of socio-economic narrowness as well as ideological narrowness.

I do very much appreciate learning how to fish and do other self-sufficient activities that were close to the natural world.

I’ve found that (as with every comparison) there are advantages and disadvantages to both.

Also, country people have an imagined fear of city people that is just as strong! Story: A couple of years ago I was renting a room in a nice neighborhood in St. Paul/Minneapolis. It was actually very tame and a little boring according to most city standards. It had a great neighborhood feel, and very convenient for someone who didn’t have a car, but it was quiet. A couple of my high school friends, who were living in an outer ring suburb (very much outer ring) at the time, heard that I was living in “the twin cities” (in their minds, they were also living in “the cities”) and called me up to see if I wanted to go out with them. I said “yes, but I don’t have a car, and it would take me forever to get to Anoka.” They said (and meant, being sweet rural Minnesotans) that it would be no problem to pick me up. Well, when Reid and Michelle rolled into my street in a HUGE black pickup with flames painted on the side :), the first thing they both said (almost in unison) was, " :o Oh my god! You live in a ghetto! :o"

It was all I could do to laugh, and laugh. :slight_smile:

#26

I mean, it’s a delicate balance. You don’t want to insulate yourself with people exactly like you, but you also don’t want to isolate yourself with people who aren’t. Society does a pretty good job of segregating people. It’s hard to find diverse communities.

#27

Do rural folk have nothing to fear from city folk?

#28

The city/suburbs encroaching on them? Oh wait you said folk… idk…

#29

I think in any living situation with a somewhat large group of people is gonna be tough i guess everyone just has to be willing to tolerate at little.

i also find my self alone in this battle, my only partner, who we shared the same dreams left me and now i feel like i have no help at all, “feeling tribe-less”, and in my hometown, no one has one bit of a clue about anything, so i know how you feel, there aint much to do around here either, but i plan to leave and find a nice communtiy.

#30

When I was studying Hunter Gathers in sociology the tribe size seemed to peak at about 30 people or 4 or 5 extended families.

#31

http://www.powells.com/biblio/17-9780609805367-2

Beyond Civilization by D. Quinn might be a useful book to read for anyone grappling with this topic. I just finished it, and (for me at least) it helped open some doors.

#32

I just purchased that book to read… still waiting on it to get here in the mail…

#33

[quote=“SilverArrow, post:23, topic:513”]In the South?

AUSTIN.
Athens, GA
Savannah
Chapel Hill
Charlottesville[/quote]

sorry i forgot to mention that we’d probably move back to the northwest outside of portland, or eugene

#34

[quote=“heyvictor, post:24, topic:513”]I really don’t think these stereotypes of rural people are worthwhile in any way. I’ve lived as a fairly extreme alternative person in rural areas. Some of the redneckiest around actually, for 30 years. Rural people are for the most part salt of the earth kind of people with much less in the way of pretentiousness.
They know a lot of the things that ya’ll would like to know and a lot of them learned it from their parents who learned it from their parents. They got that knowlege from an unbroken line of people who had it. Not from a book or the internet.
They grow big gardens, they share with their neighbors, they hunt and fish, and they know how to take care of themselves and their families and animals.
A lot of the guys I knew could take a cutting torch and a pile of old cars and make anything you want out of it.
They taught me all about wood, and hunting.
If you can drop your own pretentiousness and relate on a human to human level. If they see that you are there with the same struggles and things to deal with as them, most of the rural people I know are pretty “live and let live” when it comes to politics and religion, unless you shove it in their face all the time.

It sounds like the stereotypes and prejudice that you are carrying around are gonna keep you living in a city because of an imagined fear of country folk.[/quote]

well for for 29 of my 31 years i have lived in rural areas around the salt-of-the-earth folks.
so what i speak comes from actual experiences and not stereotypes.

i believe what i said was “99% southern baptist, homophobic, patriotic”
i never said anything about hunting or fishing. i agree with that. my neighbors here know more about the animals in this area that the people in the nearby city.
yes, some have gardens and some share. and yeah some can even weld.
i have no issue with that.

even when our vehicle was vandalized it was the local rednecks on four wheelers that helped us while the people at the budding eco-village next door were too busy having a woo-woo sharing circle.

but i disagree with the “live and let live” part when it comes to religion.
and this comes from personal experience not prejudice

we have found over and over that our neighbors are quite willing to overlook the way one might dress or wear their hair or whatever. even what they think politically.

but as soon as they catch wind of our religious beliefs (or lack of)…all doors are shut.

and it’s not something that’s “in their face.” we keep it extremely to ourselves.

i know they’d rather live next to a black, transvestite communist than a pagan or, worse, an atheist.

this has played out over and over throughout my life and nothing anyone can say can convince me otherwise. i know what i’ve seen. i know what i’ve heard. i believe what i experienced. i’m not a pretentious, snobby city-bred liberal asshole.

religion is a deal-breaker when it comes to friendliness around here. i’m glad you have found a more accepting populace around you. you are very fortunate and it seems you dont take it for granted.

my experience has been a different story.

#35

BEEN CONSIDERING FOR SOME TIME THE DEVELOPMENT…ORGANIZATION…OF A “WATERBORNE”…COASTAL TRIBE…HUNTER/GATHERER…LIVING IN THE LARGEST TEMPERATE RAIN FOREST IN THE WORLD…THE “TONGASS”…S.E.ALASKA…

USING SPECIAL OPERATIONS PHILOSOPHY ON GROUP DYNAMICS…LEADERSHIP…
…
ESTABLISHING A TRADE/BARTER SYSTEM FOR NON-PROCURABLE GOODS IE (RICE…LENTALS…BEANS…TEA…SUGAR…FLOUR…ETC)

PLEASE LET ME HEAR YOUR IDEAS ON THIS

“WALK SOFT”…URIAH