Feral vs Wild

So in a previous discussion, the topic of feral vs wild came up.
Lets start by defining.

Wild: living in a state of nature and not ordinarily tame or domesticated
Feral: having escaped from domestication and become wild
I pulled these from http://webster.com/dictionary/feral

Now Jason points out that the offspring of a feral animal is still feral. and can never be wild again.

I am wondering what people think on this. Is domestication a once you go you can never go back? Or can you go back? How long did it take humans to be domesticated? Or how long did it take domestication to change us, (smaller brain size, etc.). Can these not be gained back by living wild for perhaps an equal amount of time? Would it be possible?

I also think about the maintenance of feral humanity. Because to be wild, is to NOT be ordinarily tame or domesticated (by the definition).
To do this I almost think I should break humans into two groups… a less domesticated group, and a more domesticated group. Lets just say LD and MD for short. Starting with the LD group, and I would assume the people on this forum comprise this group, do you think this is genetic or learned behaviour, or mixture of both? If you had reached the feral state and raised children that way (or their children’s children, etc.), would their tendency be to be domesticated? or not? Would they become more and more LD?
Now the second group. The MD people, probably ones that comprise most of the human population, maybe those not as open, more susceptible to follow a blind faith, trust, or handout? First of all, would the MD group truly reach a feral state? If this group did what about their children? Would they be at the same state of the LD groups’ children, or would they hold to be MD?

What I’m saying is, after some generations of living feral, in both groups, and domestication came up again, do you think there would be a difference in how each group faced it? And even beyond that, do you think there could be a time (hypothetically/theoretically) that people could become to such a wild state, that domestication would be strongly resisted (say that of wolves)? Or is this just not even possible with people, just because of what/who we are?

This is all purely speculative and just a lot of wondering, but if anyone wants to hit me on it, go ahead. Maybe I’ve got something here? Or maybe I’ve completely missed something?

Also what is domestic?

To domesticate is: to adapt (an animal or plant) to life in intimate association with and to the advantage of humans

everything I see about domestication deals with humans (rightfully so) but what is it about humans that make it domestic? Is it living in a home?
Most definitions of domestic deal something about humans or home.
living near or about human habitations
of or relating to the household or the family
devoted to home duties and pleasures

So maybe TAME is a better word than domestic?
Tame : reduced from a state of native wildness especially so as to be tractable and useful to humans
made docile and submissive
lacking spirit, zest, interest, or the capacity to excite.

The biggest one I see here is - to the advantage of humans

So concerning human wildness/tameness, would this be to the advantage of other humans?

I’ve got a very long post I wrote about these very questions last week, but I’m saving it to be the first “front page” story on the new Anthropik site, so I think I should save my response 'till then.

haha, okay, we can then perhaps discuss with others here and see if we come to the same thing you found >> after which you could post and enlighten us =P (just kidding, discuss with us).

I have a hard time really distinguishing “feral” and “wild”. If, during early European colonization of the Americas, a European baby was taken in by a native tribe and raised the same way as all other native children, wouldn’t the European become indistinguishable from the other people in the tribe? The natives were wild, but the European was feral? What’s the real difference between them? Does the European behave or think differently? What exactly constitutes “wild”? If the European didn’t think or behave differently, and was basically the same as his/her fellow natives, then why are we playing with words like “feral” or “wild” if it really doesn’t matter?

Think about the dingos of Australia. Descended from domesticated dogs that went feral. They are still, apparently, biologically domesticated dogs who have retained their smaller brain size. But the interesting thing is, dingos are very difficult to domesticate or tame, much like “wild” wolves.

So doesn’t “feral” mean “to go wild”? If you “go wild”, then I guess that means you’re wild. Right?

The idea that “we can never go fully wild again” doesn’t do much for me, as a rewilder. On the one hand, it puts my mind/heart in a space of looking through a window at a holiday dinner that I wish I could join in - a feeling of disconnectedness. Also, since I see rewilding as a process in any case, I don’t recognize a state of “fully wild”. Additionally, since traditional animists don’t believe they can ever arrive at a place of “fully traditional”, the idea seems even less relevant.

The word ‘Feral’, for me, points to a direction, a returning back to “wild”, what I call ‘rewilding’. In some ways, domestication also refers to an ongoing process, of keeping someone addicted or controlled in relation to civilized structures.

As humans, I believe we have an infinite road ahead of us, along which we can rewild ever more and more deeply. We can also take domesticating steps backwards. The moment we believe we’ve arrived at the end of our journey, we’ve stopped living in the moment, and we’ve stopped rewilding.

I think domestication gives us this sense of “just wanting to get to the end of the journey”, for only civilization promises a life where we don’t have to pay attention, think, feel pain or discomfort, etc. By its very nature, rewilding says we can rest on the path, but the star bright point towards which we travel only orients us to the compass, only shows us this way. If we could actually reach it, we’d lose our orientation, and no longer stand at the center of the four directions.

If, during early European colonization of the Americas, a European baby was taken in by a native tribe and raised the same way as all other native children, wouldn't the European become indistinguishable from the other people in the tribe?

Nope. He’d still always have that 10% reduction in cranial capacity, for instance. There are some parts of domestication that just can’t be undone. That’s why you can never exactly go “back,” there’s really only “forward.” The same thing won’t work anymore; we’ve got a lot to learn from what worked before, but we can’t just copy it. We’ve got to find a new way forward.

What's the real difference between them? Does the European behave or think differently?

Yes. We will never again be able to fully think or behave as wild humans once did. For one thing, we need to deal with a world where domestication exists. That’s not something that any wild human ever had to do. Even once there are no more domesticated people, we’ll still have to deal with the fact that we went through it.

What exactly constitutes "wild"?

“Wild” only makes sense in a world with domestication, because it’s the default state of everything. Only once you have domestication can you speak of “wild.”

If the European didn't think or behave differently, and was basically the same as his/her fellow natives, then why are we playing with words like "feral" or "wild" if it really doesn't matter?

Because they did think and behave differently, because it does matter.

Think about the dingos of Australia. Descended from domesticated dogs that went feral. They are still, apparently, biologically domesticated dogs who have retained their smaller brain size. But the interesting thing is, dingos are very difficult to domesticate or tame, much like "wild" wolves.

The dingos are actually one of my prime examples. They’ve been feral for quite some time. They share some things in common with wild wolves, just like all feral animals share some things in common with their wild ancestors, but they’ve had a different history, and it’s changed them behaviorally and sometimes physically. Going feral is not the same as being domesticated, but it’s not the same as being wild, either. It’s the third way, something new that humans haven’t tried before.

So doesn't "feral" mean "to go wild"? If you "go wild", then I guess that means you're wild. Right?

But you’ve been domesticated before, and you’ll always have some amount of that legacy with you. No feral animal is quite like its wild ancestor. Going feral is never as simple as just doing what used to work, because what used to work worked in a world without domestication, and we don’t have that anymore. Feral is a third thing, a new thing. It’s a creative, syncretic way forward.

The idea that "we can never go fully wild again" doesn't do much for me, as a rewilder. On the one hand, it puts my mind/heart in a space of looking through a window at a holiday dinner that I wish I could join in - a feeling of disconnectedness.

I think that view neglects the promise of what being feral could be. We all have times when we look back at the past and wish we could be there again, but that’s the nature of the past–it’s gone. But what of the promise of the future? That, to me, is the difference between feral and wild, in a nutshell–trying to recreate the past, vs. trying to create something new.

Also, since I see rewilding as a process in any case, I don't recognize a state of "fully wild". Additionally, since traditional animists don't believe they can ever arrive at a place of "fully traditional", the idea seems even less relevant.

By the same token, becoming feral is also a lifelong process. It’s not a matter of failing to become “fully wild,” but the fact that we can’t be wild again at all. We can’t change our past, and we can’t make the things we’ve experienced so they never happened. We can’t just ignore all of that. It comes along with us. The experience of domestication will always be part of us; that’s not something we can change. Dingos never became wolves again, but they didn’t stay dogs; they became dingos. Humans can never become wild again, but we don’t have to stay domesticated; we can go feral.

The word 'Feral', for me, points to a direction, a returning back to "wild", what I call 'rewilding'. In some ways, domestication also refers to an ongoing process, of keeping someone addicted or controlled in relation to civilized structures.

That’s true, but do you think we’ll ever fit into a spectrum with the !Kung, or the M’Buti, or the Inuit? Perhaps superficially, from the “they all look alike” ignorant viewpoint of the domesticated human, but I don’t think we’ll ever fully reconstruct the wild way of living. How could we? We’ve experienced domestication, something they never did. We’ve even been changed physically, in some ways irrevocably. There is no “back” to go to; forward, creating something new, even from the shreds of civilization at times, is the only way we can go. When I think of “going wild,” I think of atavism. When I think of going feral, I think of syncretism.

As humans, I believe we have an infinite road ahead of us, along which we can rewild ever more and more deeply. We can also take domesticating steps backwards. The moment we believe we've arrived at the end of our journey, we've stopped living in the moment, and we've stopped rewilding.

I think it’s a little more complex than that, because you’re talking about just one road, and you can move towards wild or domesticated. But what about taking that path that bracnhes off and heads off in a new direction? That’s what I mean by “feral.” I don’t think we can go back where we came from, we’ve been through too much for that. But that doesn’t mean we have to keep on following Domestication Road.

I think domestication gives us this sense of "just wanting to get to the end of the journey", for only civilization promises a life where we don't have to pay attention, think, feel pain or discomfort, etc. By its very nature, rewilding says we can rest on the path, but the star bright point towards which we travel only orients us to the compass, only shows us this way. If we could actually reach it, we'd lose our orientation, and no longer stand at the center of the four directions.

I think that’s something wild and feral have in common (and they do have a good deal in common); like going wild, you’re never finished becoming feral.

It occurs to me, this might be a function of bioregionalism. Here we are, both singing the songs of our lands. You’re from the Pacific Northwest, full of old growth forest, so of course you can see the potential to go wild. My own forest is regrowing from devastation; it has a different mix of trees and plants, it has coyotes becoming wolves, it has a whole ecology trying to find its feet again. They’re all painfully aware that the past is gone forever, but that’s OK; they’re not trying to recreate the past, they’re trying to find a new way forward. That’s a song that sings in my heart, too, and that’s probably why I’m here talking about “feral” instead of “wild.” Heh, that’s an interesting thought, isn’t it?

Indeed. I wonder if that’s why I’ve tended to shy away from “reconstructionist” attempts for so long. The Appalachians have seen such a huge amount of destruction over the last few centuries, it is difficult (usually impossible) for me to see them ever recovering to be the same as they were even a mere 300 years ago.

Yes, that could easily explain our differing perceptions.

More thoughts…for me, ‘wild’ also carries a connotation of “belonging to one’s place” - finding one’s sustainable fit with the land. Since species constantly adapt and re-adapt in a non-linear response to a habitat in non-linear flux, can we usefully discriminate between “feral” and “wild”? Perhaps you either belong, or not? You’ve either hit a point where you ‘fit’ with your place, or you haven’t yet, and you can see your place reeling in chaos? Can we tries the notion of ‘feral’ back to modern human notions of ‘invasive exotics’ and so on? Do you see where my thought goes on this? If the dingo has ‘gone forward’, then it must have done so by belonging, I’d think, no matter how much it resembles (or not) its ancestors. If it has found a new niche, with new requirements, can we call it less ‘wild’?

For clarity’s sake, I have no problem if I never rewild as deeply as any native elder. I have no problem if I never ‘belong’ as fully as them. Though I intend much rewilding, I remain at the mercy of a cultural context bent on making that difficult. So, doing my best, I orient myself to the direction away from domestication by using those elders as a reference point (in a certain sense…also the more-than-human Land herself directs me). How do notions of ‘feral’, as opposed to ‘wild’, accelerate, clarify, or change my course?

Up till now I’ve used ‘feral’ as a static synonym for the process of ‘rewilding’ (which obviously, we don’t call ‘re-feraling’ or some such), but I remain open to new and more effective uses of the term and the concepts around it. Have I missed anything in your posts Jason that could help me with this?

More thoughts...for me, 'wild' also carries a connotation of "belonging to one's place" - finding one's sustainable fit with the land. Since species constantly adapt and re-adapt in a non-linear response to a habitat in non-linear flux, can we usefully discriminate between "feral" and "wild"?

I use the word native for that (as opposed to invasive). Wild and native are related, but not necessarily in that 1-to-1 way. After all, there are all kinds of wild invasive species, aren’t there? But it seems to me that part of being wild is that wild animals try to become native. Being native is really a question of how much of a relationship you have with the land; invasive species are “bad” because they lack predatory relationships and feedback relationships, they put too much pressure on the rest of the community and they have nothing to keep them in check. Domestication works as a complex to defy becoming native. Remaining invasive is a goal for domestication. Feral animals have this in common with wild animals: feral animals also try to become native. You’ll hear a lot of talk about the damage of feral animals, like feral cats, and it’s precisely the same problem as invasive animals. But like a wild invasive animal, a feral animal forms relationships, and given time, becomes native. Wild boar are native in Europe; wild boar are invasive in many parts of the Americas; feral pigs start out as invasive, but feral pigs can also become native.

If the dingo has 'gone forward', then it must have done so by belonging, I'd think, no matter how much it resembles (or not) its ancestors. If it has found a new niche, with new requirements, can we call it less 'wild'?

I think so. A dingo is definitely native; it’s reformed new relationships. But it has a history of domestication, a history that still lingers in many ways. A dingo and a wolf both belong in their places, but a dingo has become something else. It’s experienced something altogether different. Wild animals are shaped by a web of mutual relationships; domesticated animals have relationship replaced with domination. Feral animals move past that, and try to rekindle relationship again. But that experience is always with them.

Think of it this way: every wild animal is created by the web of mutual relationships that it exists in, but every feral animal is created in part by that, and in part by domination. If you mean by calling it less “wild” that it’s less … “good”? … I would say no. I would say that a feral animal can be even more conscious, more aware than a wild animal; it’s possible that we might actually gain something from this whole terrible experience, after all. If nothing else, an awareness that the present paradise that every animist lives in can’t be taken for granted.

How do notions of 'feral', as opposed to 'wild', accelerate, clarify, or change my course?

I think it tells you why, as good as those teachers are, they can’t teach you everything, and why you need other teachers in addition to them. I think it tells you why there isn’t a ready-made culture for you to simply slip into like every wild human child, why you have to create something new. I think it warns against trying to “purify” yourself of your “tainted” civilized heritage, and instead try to build who you become on top of who you’ve been.

Have I missed anything in your posts Jason that could help me with this?

There’s not a lot of difference between wild and feral animals; the word comes from the Latin fera, meaning “wild animal.” But the words are different for a reason: because a feral animal always carries with it a legacy of its time domesticated. It’s never quite the same again. That’s why they’re called feral: because as close as they come (and they’re always coming closer), they’re never quite the same again. That doesn’t mean we can’t become native again, and it certainly doesn’t mean that we have to remain domesticated and invasive … but it does mean that our way forward can never be as simple as just going back. It’ll take a lot more creativity than that.

Like I said, I had a big article in the works.

very good so far, but then I clicked a link and went to go back and it died.

The site migrated to a new server this weekend, so things will be on and off for a bit. If you run into a problem like that, just give us a few minutes and reload; chances are high that someone’s doing something, aware of it, and working on fixing it as you see it.

Yeah I figured as much, just finished reading it,

I find this particularly true.

The seeking adolescent hunts for a college in a distant land, a career in a distant city... What happened to family, in the self-absorbed adolescent quest for a purpose? Will they receive postcards, perhaps? Will they someday get photos of their unknown grandchildren? When a native teenage “walkabout” ends, you return home, and find your place at last. When will we return home?

I moved 2500 miles from my family, from Michigan to Washington for school. You could say I was able to do this because I grew up in a pretty dysfunctional family, but I know that when something happens, it will be time to return home. Who can you trust, who can you rely on if not family/close friends?