Well, in my view, we’re connected, or One, or united, or Related to All to everything, thru our breath, our five senses, thru what we eat and drink and eliminate, etc. We “emit” our thoughts, emotions, etc. We are emitters-receptors in total interaction with ALL.
So, considering all of this, I’d say all our actions, thoughts. interactions at All Time could be interpreted as prayers if praying means to communicate with this Great Mystery Of Life and or ask and or show gratitude and so on.
I used to think that everything I did demonstrated my love for my wife and children so why should I have to say it. For some reason it makes them feel good to hear it.
I love this thread, by the way. Thanks all. I don’t know what else to say - I really get a lot out of hearing other folks relationships to prayer, and of course I always love Billy’s stories. 
They rock!
Has anyone else ever notice the similarities between a “visualization” and a prayer ?
I’ve read that experiments were made to observe the effects on the brain when one is actually doing something like for example; running, walking, etc. compared to simply visualizing the same actions. The results are pretty interesting, I find. The same things are observed in the brain as well as in the hormonal system and so on whether the actual action or simply visualizing is done. So it would imply that if a person is feeling, thinking, visualizing something negative causing fear, anxiety, etc. , the body would react accordingly. While if one is feeling, visualizing something positive, the body also reacts accordingly.
It seems to me that “faith” is a state of confidence and serenity in a positive outcome. A lack of faith might be a lack of confidence and serenity, and a not so clear positive vision, and even at times a vision of the feared opposite outcome.
I’ve read about miraculous and / or unexplained healings of people who say it is their prayers and total faith in God (Creator, Great Mystery, etc.) that cured them. And I’ve read and heard of people who also miraculously recovered from deadly diseases, etc. and say it is thru visualization.
What are your thoughts on this ?
Misko
I would say you’ve got it. You could also throw in “immersive sensory experience of the imagined outcome” as a lever there, too.
I definitely think nowadays we (culturally) treat our words too cheaply, our jokes and jests too lightly, when they touch on things we actually don’t want to happen.
Folks used to have a healthy respect of the spoken word (and later, the written one). Knocking on wood when you don’t mean what you say (or to avoid a jinx), things like this help me stay clear about my intention as I move through the world.
We make movies and books on horrible things, and expect them to go away as nicely as they came.
This culture chalks up as mere “superstition” tools we’ve always used to stay clear on the world we want to build for ourselves. Just writing that, I feel a spike of anger.
“…immersive sensory experience of the imagined outcome…”
First time I hear about this. It sounds to me like it may mean; using all our senses in the “visualization”. I find that “immersive sensory experience of the imagined outcome” (ISEIO) is concise and precise, I like that. A little long maybe to use in a sentence among friends but hey…!
According to my limited experience in this domain and from what I read about it, the chances of attaining the desired outcome will be hightened if all our senses are used in the visualization (ISEIO) or prayer. In other words, the more it is real with the emotions and so on, the better.
I hope I’m not making it sound like a recipe or technique for “success” or for materializing all our dreams and desires and $$$ and power and so on…
A little long maybe to use in a sentence among friends but hey...!
You haven’t met my friends…ha ha. Yes, that phrasing sounds a little unwieldly, I agree, but definitely to the point.
the chances of attaining the desired outcome will be hightened if all our senses are used in the visualization (ISEIO) or prayer. In other words, the more it is real with the emotions and so on, the better.
My experiences and what mentors have taught me agree! Vividness, vividness, vividness. Senses and intense emotions. I count the vivid and immersive wealth of our senses and emotions among the treasures lost in the Great Forgetting of our indigenous ancestry.
I hope I'm not making it sound like a recipe or technique for "success" or for materializing all our dreams and desires and $$$ and power and so on...
Right, like in that horrible “the Secret” movie/marketing thing. They should have called it, “the $ecret”. 
Here is an anecdote: "I was in grade 2 and in my class there was this gorgeous girl, tall, black hair, self confident and almost a year older than me. I was short, younger (9), and sorta timid, well, more than sorta…I just couldn’t get myself to talk to her, and even if I did, I wouldn’t have had any conversation anyway (still the case, but now it doesn’t matter cause I caught one, He He!).
At that period in my life I would pray every day, to be better in Judo, school, etc. So lacking confidence to “flirt” with the tall older lady I decided to flirt the only other way I could, and that was “praying”…Some might actually call that “love medicine”…So anyway I started intense praying, and yes it was vivid ! Daytime, I hardly looked at her, too shy. Night time well…
This went on for weeks. She didn’t notice me it seemed. Then one day out of no where, as I’m stepping out of the school and onto the steps, I had to walk just by her and a couple of her friends and I could hardly look at her, too shy …Well she grabbed me and KISSED me
and said she just had to, or something like that! I just didn’t know what to do and so of course did practically nothing except my face was as red as a tomato!
Anyway, it was a good thing I had prayers when I was young because I lacked so much self confidence.
Funny! Whew. Those fundamentalist christians have it right after all - if it gets us smooches, let’s bring prayer back into the schools!!! ;D ;D 
I also think of storyjamming as prayer. Kinda like praying by myth. Except not on purpose or out of a sense of a particular desired outcome, but rather allowing the myth that wants to emerge, to do so.
This thread is reminding me of a true story which many of you have probably heard also. It 's about how a monkey was seen doing something that had not been observed before, at least not by the scientific community anyway. One monkey was seen for the first time washing a potato (or some other vegetable) before eating it. So far, perhaps only interesting for a monkey “specialist”. Then soon after, other monkeys started doing it…Again the monkeyologist might be interested more than me… Here comes the dessert part; eventually, in other parts of the world, other monkeys started doing it. There was no possibility that the monkeys from the various areas around the globe could have had any kind of contact. Well, perhaps “some” kind. But not of the familiar physical kind.
There was also an experiment done with rats. All done under scientific standards. The rats had to figure out how to get their food thru a complex procedure (I forget what it was). The rats succeeded in a certain amount of time. They did the same experiment with another group of rats who had no contact with the first group, and they did this in another part of the world. This second group succeeded but they did it much faster than the first group (I forget the exact duration). Then they did the same experiment with a third group of rats in another country, and this third group did it significantly faster than the other groups too.
What does all this have to do with this topic of prayers ?
Well, to me this suggests that like behaviors, prayers probably can travel far and can also be received by other beings. So far, probably nothing new for anyone here. But what if we could somehow “incite” change among humans this way too. And since what we’d be affecting would be the ideas, thoughts, visions of the people who are open to this new or
more “vivid” vision or idea. And since ALOT starts at this level, if not everything. Revolutions start like this. The “Law Of The Great Peace” of the Iroquois started out with a vision or idea.
Possibly everything we materialize starts out as an idea, feeling, vision, dream, etc. Good or bad, I’d add.
So, I don’t know about affecting the assholes in control of this civilization and the wannabe assholes, but I suspect the open minded and sensible human beings, we might be able to do something about. Maybe we can find ways to become more “effective” in this particular domain where we probably already affect people anyway, and get some people to embrace a viable way of life.
What do you think ?
Any ideas ?
Misko, loved your story about praying for kisses!
"...immersive sensory experience of the imagined outcome..."
Reminds me of a great book I picked up in Hawai’i called IMAGINEERING FOR HEALTH by Serge Kahili King. I also recommend URBAN SHAMAN.
Both books teach how to use imagination to help shape your personal dream and those of the people, creatures and things around you for the better. I should back track and say that one of the principles of Huna (the system that in these books) makes the assumption many traditional cultures make: The world is as you dream it. And to add to that, everything is dreaming.
What does all this have to do with this topic of prayers ? Well, to me this suggests that like behaviors, prayers probably can travel far and can also be received by other beings. So far, probably nothing new for anyone here. But what if we could somehow "incite" change among humans this way too. And since what we'd be affecting would be the ideas, thoughts, visions of the people who are open to this new or more "vivid" vision or idea. And since ALOT starts at this level, if not everything. Revolutions start like this. The "Law Of The Great Peace" of the Iroquois started out with a vision or idea. Possibly everything we materialize starts out as an idea, feeling, vision, dream, etc. Good or bad, I'd add.
I wrote half a response to your message yesterday, then deleted it and promised myself to come back. I felt your message needed more digesting.
I am certainly one who fully believes that we can affect the minds of others for the positive. It is what I work towards everyday. There are certain challenges when working with humans that you don’t face when doing the same kind of work with trees, dogs, clouds and other things like that. One of the major ones in our culture is that humans are somehow better and more special than all other creatures. That can set up quite a bit of resistance to change.
From the shamanic or imagineering perspective, there are many ways to create change in the minds of those around you.
What do you think ?Any ideas ?
Lots of ways to influence minds out there.
One of my favorite is tapping into a persons current dream and adding to or changing it some how. You must first make and accept the assumption that people are dreaming all the time, 24-7.
How you tap into the dream is up to you, but one method Serge King describes works well for me. Vividly imagine their dream going on right above their heads. Let come what may, no need to force it. If you see a dark, stark landscape with a big storm over it then play with it for the better. Have the clouds break, and sun come down. Have it rain, and have flowers pop up all over. Have the birds show up and start singing, and so on.
It can work wonders on peoples mood and outlook. The dream change technique does not force anything to happen, rather it is more like a vivid suggestion to their body-mind. Since the body-mind tends to move towards pleasure and away from pain, the more pleasurable you make it the better. Even if their dream appears perfect, you can still change it for the better.
You can use the same technique on yourself, and more specifically on various parts of your body that need healing i.e. heart, fingers, knee and so on. It can have powerful results. Effectiveness takes focus and sometimes, persistence.
Our imagination is a muscle, in western culture it is generally discouraged. It is a powerful tool for shaping our experience, it is not just a silly thing used only by children or artists. The most effective shamans and healers around tend to use it to create positive change. So, why shouldn’t we?
One thing to think about is that all humans have basic needs for safety, comfort, love, and so on. Keeping that in mind, how might we use techniques for changing their minds to help them connect more powerfully with the life around them?
That is interesting. I try to go out most days at sunset and pray to the sun, thanking it for my life and food for the day. I’d do it at sunrise but I’m lousy at getting up that early unless I’m camping 
I’m beginning to wonder if the birds singing in the morning are also praying (in their way) to the rising sun. No scientific evidence against it!
“I don’t believe that I do anything on my own without the help of the spirits.
Last fall my wife and I were asked to take a young girl into our home to foster as our daughter…”
–That is beautiful heyvictor, I do think they are around and do help us out at times in this complex world.
I'm beginning to wonder if the birds singing in the morning are also praying (in their way) to the rising sun. No scientific evidence against it!
I like to think of the birds as singing the world into being every morning. The dawn chorus is powerful, especially during the spring-summer time. I have had some profound spiritual experiences with the dawn chorus, and have felt how their songs come together to sing up the sun and weave the world we see together.
There is no doubt in me that bird song goes far beyond what they are believed to be for as understood by scientists: territoriality, sex and so on. I am trained as a scientist, to so this is not to make them out to be wrong.
Isn’t it interesting how Westerners can take for granted that humans can be spiritual and have spiritual experiences, but don’t believe that animals can have them as well?
As I write this, the Bewick’s wren that is nesting in my yard is singing loudly. I can also hear the song sparrow singing one of its songs in my neighbors yard.
That is interesting. I try to go out most days at sunset and pray to the sun, thanking it for my life and food for the day. I'd do it at sunrise but I'm lousy at getting up that early unless I'm camping Tongue
There was a time when I woke up everyday with the Dawn Chorus, which this time of year starts around 4 am.
I agree. In my experience, it does behave a lot like a muscle. If you don’t use it, it loses strength after awhile, and when you try to engage it again you have to push yourself a little bit.
I’ve written and rewritten this so many times I’ve lost count. I’ve reduced many thousands of words worth of ramblings and rants to these short points (still containing some ranting, of course):
a) I am so atheist it hurts. I now literally walk away from people the moment the topic of religion comes up. Every such discussion ends the same way: everybody agrees to disagree (while still trying to pick a fight over who’s right/wrong). It’s a waste of energy.
b) My answer to “What do you believe will happen when you die?” is “I don’t know”. Nobody alive knows the answer, so why pretend otherwise? Theorizing over the unknown is a waste of energy.
c) I am morally intact, thank you. If you think my refusal to believe in any kind of superior consciousness means I’ll “do whatever I want” due to a lack of accountability for my actions, get a clue. If you need to believe in such accountability to keep yourself in check, that says much more about you than it does about me.
d) I oppose teaching spirituality of any kind to children. How is giving thanks to a rising Sun all that much different than praising a Jesus figure? Attributing mystical qualities to any kind of “higher power” sets off alarm bells for me.
e) I do believe in personal meditation. For me, meditation and daydreaming would be considered pretty much identical. I just let my mind wander. I’m not focusing on bleeding out negative energy or absorbing good energy (as far as I’m concerned, all natural energy is purely neutral; human beings are the ones who take that neutral energy and mold it into positive/negative forces). I just clear my mind and stop thinking so much. Most importantly, I don’t analyze things to death; I don’t look for meaning in places where the only meaning to be found is the meaning one wants to find.
For me, I wish fervently that this next generation of kids grows up with an animist value system. I don’t know what else will keep the whole country from getting covered in asphalt and abused into oblivion.
Would you thank someone you love who gave you a really awesome gift? If they just kept doing it every day? Would you feel amazed at their generosity? When I thank the trees, wind, sun, rocks, birds, etc. for the gifts they give me, it just feels like honoring my relationship with them. Not recognizing them as a “superior” conscisouness, but a fellow one. How you see your relationships with others determines how you treat them, how you choose to interact.
Letting kids grow up like most have in our culture (for many, many generations), to narrowly define “relationships with others” in which they give/receive love, caring, support and gifts and owe debts of gratitude as including only humans, allows things like clearcuts, stripmining, superhighways, suburbia, industrial food production, flotillas of plastic garbage in the ocean, nuclear power, dams, etc. to happen.
If ever the sun quit giving gifts, we would all die. Not a mystical concept, just the reality of our relationship to each other. Animism recognizes that the world dies daily and gets recreated fresh every day, different from yesterday. Change. Flux.
d) I oppose teaching spirituality of any kind to children. How is giving thanks to a rising Sun all that much different than praising a Jesus figure? Attributing mystical qualities to any kind of "higher power" sets off alarm bells for me.
Everything else you said in your post rings true for me too, except this, which makes me wonder if you understand animism fully. Giving thanks to the Sun resembles praising a Jesus figure only in so far as perhaps Jesus made you dinner, or fixed your car for free, or something, and you want to say thank you. Mysticality or higher-powered-ness doesn’t really enter into it.
Anyway, yarrow dreamer said it all quite well.
I also think we strengthen our capacity to send gratitude, just like a muscle too.
Hey woodsman,
The last thing I want to do is argue spirituality or try to convince anybody that I know “the way”.
“Every such discussion ends the same way: everybody agrees to disagree (while still trying to pick a fight over who’s right/wrong).”
While I don’t think every discussion ends that way, I’ve seen enough of them that do to know what you are talking about. Which is why I hope that doesn’t happen here.
yarrow dreamer and Willem, thanks for the responses. Early PS: if you start disagreeing with me or think I’m totally off my rocker, make sure to read the last 2 paragraphs!
makes me wonder if you understand animism fully
I can inform you that I indeed know nothing of animism. However, a brief lookup in dictionaries indicates definitions such as “the doctrine that all natural objects and the universe itself have souls” and “the belief that inanimate objects and the phenomena of nature are endowed with personal life or a living soul”. At this point in my life, I can say I don’t believe much in animism.
My view is that of course I’m thankful for everything nature can offer, but I don’t attribute those gifts as having been purposely put forward by nature. I am extremely grateful for a sunny day, but I don’t see there being anyone or anything to thank for having provided that Sun. Why can’t we just accept that the Sun exists and is beautiful, without having to attach extra meaning to it? I don’t want my next point to come across as insulting, but it almost seems like animism could just be another system to keep people in check. As if not believing in inanimate souls/energy leads to destruction of the planet through the idea that non-believers couldn’t possibly have respect for the world around them.
Having just read what I typed, I don’t seem to make all that much sense. How am I supposed to explain how I don’t believe a tree is sentient, but that I still have the utmost respect for it? That cutting down a tree doesn’t ruin the world, but for the fact that I wholeheartedly believe a tree should not be cut down unless it will be used out of genuine necessity (and what civ does with trees is sure as hell not necessary).
I think my true problem is that I haven’t been granted the opportunity to truly “be one” with nature. I’m a total nature nut, but my lack of a vehicle means I can’t even head out camping in the middle of nowhere on weekends. As a matter of fact, I’ve never been camping in my entire life (which believe me, is the single fact that crushes me more and more every day). I really need to get away, if only for a week, and enjoy some serious one-on-one time with the elements. At least then I could have a more educated opinion based on first-hand experience.
Man, I really do need to get away. It seems that with every month that goes by, I get more and more bitter. Civ really knows how to suck the life out of someone. :’(
According to my own rules of moderation, I limit myself to asking questions or telling my own story, so no worries! ;D
The wikipedia definition of animism doesn’t satisfy me, to say the least. I experience animism differently. A brief lookup on wikipedia will not do the subject (as held here) justice.
As a moderator, I welcome you to ask questions of how others here experience animism.
I respect your right to not feel in accord with the animistic value system…you have however plopped yourself down in a haven of animists.