Do you pray?

Regenerative Culture Spiritual Technology
#21

Misko, loved your story about praying for kisses!

"...immersive sensory experience of the imagined outcome..."

Reminds me of a great book I picked up in Hawai’i called IMAGINEERING FOR HEALTH by Serge Kahili King. I also recommend URBAN SHAMAN.

Both books teach how to use imagination to help shape your personal dream and those of the people, creatures and things around you for the better. I should back track and say that one of the principles of Huna (the system that in these books) makes the assumption many traditional cultures make: The world is as you dream it. And to add to that, everything is dreaming.

What does all this have to do with this topic of prayers ? Well, to me this suggests that like behaviors, prayers probably can travel far and can also be received by other beings. So far, probably nothing new for anyone here. But what if we could somehow "incite" change among humans this way too. And since what we'd be affecting would be the ideas, thoughts, visions of the people who are open to this new or more "vivid" vision or idea. And since ALOT starts at this level, if not everything. Revolutions start like this. The "Law Of The Great Peace" of the Iroquois started out with a vision or idea. Possibly everything we materialize starts out as an idea, feeling, vision, dream, etc. Good or bad, I'd add.

I wrote half a response to your message yesterday, then deleted it and promised myself to come back. I felt your message needed more digesting.

I am certainly one who fully believes that we can affect the minds of others for the positive. It is what I work towards everyday. There are certain challenges when working with humans that you don’t face when doing the same kind of work with trees, dogs, clouds and other things like that. One of the major ones in our culture is that humans are somehow better and more special than all other creatures. That can set up quite a bit of resistance to change.

From the shamanic or imagineering perspective, there are many ways to create change in the minds of those around you.

What do you think ?

Any ideas ?

Lots of ways to influence minds out there.

One of my favorite is tapping into a persons current dream and adding to or changing it some how. You must first make and accept the assumption that people are dreaming all the time, 24-7.

How you tap into the dream is up to you, but one method Serge King describes works well for me. Vividly imagine their dream going on right above their heads. Let come what may, no need to force it. If you see a dark, stark landscape with a big storm over it then play with it for the better. Have the clouds break, and sun come down. Have it rain, and have flowers pop up all over. Have the birds show up and start singing, and so on.

It can work wonders on peoples mood and outlook. The dream change technique does not force anything to happen, rather it is more like a vivid suggestion to their body-mind. Since the body-mind tends to move towards pleasure and away from pain, the more pleasurable you make it the better. Even if their dream appears perfect, you can still change it for the better.

You can use the same technique on yourself, and more specifically on various parts of your body that need healing i.e. heart, fingers, knee and so on. It can have powerful results. Effectiveness takes focus and sometimes, persistence.

Our imagination is a muscle, in western culture it is generally discouraged. It is a powerful tool for shaping our experience, it is not just a silly thing used only by children or artists. The most effective shamans and healers around tend to use it to create positive change. So, why shouldn’t we?

One thing to think about is that all humans have basic needs for safety, comfort, love, and so on. Keeping that in mind, how might we use techniques for changing their minds to help them connect more powerfully with the life around them?

#22

That is interesting. I try to go out most days at sunset and pray to the sun, thanking it for my life and food for the day. I’d do it at sunrise but I’m lousy at getting up that early unless I’m camping :stuck_out_tongue:

I’m beginning to wonder if the birds singing in the morning are also praying (in their way) to the rising sun. No scientific evidence against it!

“I don’t believe that I do anything on my own without the help of the spirits.
Last fall my wife and I were asked to take a young girl into our home to foster as our daughter…”
–That is beautiful heyvictor, I do think they are around and do help us out at times in this complex world.

#23
I'm beginning to wonder if the birds singing in the morning are also praying (in their way) to the rising sun. No scientific evidence against it!

I like to think of the birds as singing the world into being every morning. The dawn chorus is powerful, especially during the spring-summer time. I have had some profound spiritual experiences with the dawn chorus, and have felt how their songs come together to sing up the sun and weave the world we see together.

There is no doubt in me that bird song goes far beyond what they are believed to be for as understood by scientists: territoriality, sex and so on. I am trained as a scientist, to so this is not to make them out to be wrong.

Isn’t it interesting how Westerners can take for granted that humans can be spiritual and have spiritual experiences, but don’t believe that animals can have them as well?

As I write this, the Bewick’s wren that is nesting in my yard is singing loudly. I can also hear the song sparrow singing one of its songs in my neighbors yard.

That is interesting. I try to go out most days at sunset and pray to the sun, thanking it for my life and food for the day. I'd do it at sunrise but I'm lousy at getting up that early unless I'm camping Tongue

There was a time when I woke up everyday with the Dawn Chorus, which this time of year starts around 4 am.

#24

I agree. In my experience, it does behave a lot like a muscle. If you don’t use it, it loses strength after awhile, and when you try to engage it again you have to push yourself a little bit.

#25

I’ve written and rewritten this so many times I’ve lost count. I’ve reduced many thousands of words worth of ramblings and rants to these short points (still containing some ranting, of course):

a) I am so atheist it hurts. I now literally walk away from people the moment the topic of religion comes up. Every such discussion ends the same way: everybody agrees to disagree (while still trying to pick a fight over who’s right/wrong). It’s a waste of energy.

b) My answer to “What do you believe will happen when you die?” is “I don’t know”. Nobody alive knows the answer, so why pretend otherwise? Theorizing over the unknown is a waste of energy.

c) I am morally intact, thank you. If you think my refusal to believe in any kind of superior consciousness means I’ll “do whatever I want” due to a lack of accountability for my actions, get a clue. If you need to believe in such accountability to keep yourself in check, that says much more about you than it does about me.

d) I oppose teaching spirituality of any kind to children. How is giving thanks to a rising Sun all that much different than praising a Jesus figure? Attributing mystical qualities to any kind of “higher power” sets off alarm bells for me.

e) I do believe in personal meditation. For me, meditation and daydreaming would be considered pretty much identical. I just let my mind wander. I’m not focusing on bleeding out negative energy or absorbing good energy (as far as I’m concerned, all natural energy is purely neutral; human beings are the ones who take that neutral energy and mold it into positive/negative forces). I just clear my mind and stop thinking so much. Most importantly, I don’t analyze things to death; I don’t look for meaning in places where the only meaning to be found is the meaning one wants to find.

#26

For me, I wish fervently that this next generation of kids grows up with an animist value system. I don’t know what else will keep the whole country from getting covered in asphalt and abused into oblivion.

Would you thank someone you love who gave you a really awesome gift? If they just kept doing it every day? Would you feel amazed at their generosity? When I thank the trees, wind, sun, rocks, birds, etc. for the gifts they give me, it just feels like honoring my relationship with them. Not recognizing them as a “superior” conscisouness, but a fellow one. How you see your relationships with others determines how you treat them, how you choose to interact.

Letting kids grow up like most have in our culture (for many, many generations), to narrowly define “relationships with others” in which they give/receive love, caring, support and gifts and owe debts of gratitude as including only humans, allows things like clearcuts, stripmining, superhighways, suburbia, industrial food production, flotillas of plastic garbage in the ocean, nuclear power, dams, etc. to happen.

If ever the sun quit giving gifts, we would all die. Not a mystical concept, just the reality of our relationship to each other. Animism recognizes that the world dies daily and gets recreated fresh every day, different from yesterday. Change. Flux.

#27
d) I oppose teaching spirituality of any kind to children. How is giving thanks to a rising Sun all that much different than praising a Jesus figure? Attributing mystical qualities to any kind of "higher power" sets off alarm bells for me.

Everything else you said in your post rings true for me too, except this, which makes me wonder if you understand animism fully. Giving thanks to the Sun resembles praising a Jesus figure only in so far as perhaps Jesus made you dinner, or fixed your car for free, or something, and you want to say thank you. Mysticality or higher-powered-ness doesn’t really enter into it.

Anyway, yarrow dreamer said it all quite well.

I also think we strengthen our capacity to send gratitude, just like a muscle too.

#28

Hey woodsman,
The last thing I want to do is argue spirituality or try to convince anybody that I know “the way”.

“Every such discussion ends the same way: everybody agrees to disagree (while still trying to pick a fight over who’s right/wrong).”

While I don’t think every discussion ends that way, I’ve seen enough of them that do to know what you are talking about. Which is why I hope that doesn’t happen here.

#29

yarrow dreamer and Willem, thanks for the responses. Early PS: if you start disagreeing with me or think I’m totally off my rocker, make sure to read the last 2 paragraphs!

makes me wonder if you understand animism fully

I can inform you that I indeed know nothing of animism. However, a brief lookup in dictionaries indicates definitions such as “the doctrine that all natural objects and the universe itself have souls” and “the belief that inanimate objects and the phenomena of nature are endowed with personal life or a living soul”. At this point in my life, I can say I don’t believe much in animism.

My view is that of course I’m thankful for everything nature can offer, but I don’t attribute those gifts as having been purposely put forward by nature. I am extremely grateful for a sunny day, but I don’t see there being anyone or anything to thank for having provided that Sun. Why can’t we just accept that the Sun exists and is beautiful, without having to attach extra meaning to it? I don’t want my next point to come across as insulting, but it almost seems like animism could just be another system to keep people in check. As if not believing in inanimate souls/energy leads to destruction of the planet through the idea that non-believers couldn’t possibly have respect for the world around them.

Having just read what I typed, I don’t seem to make all that much sense. How am I supposed to explain how I don’t believe a tree is sentient, but that I still have the utmost respect for it? That cutting down a tree doesn’t ruin the world, but for the fact that I wholeheartedly believe a tree should not be cut down unless it will be used out of genuine necessity (and what civ does with trees is sure as hell not necessary).

I think my true problem is that I haven’t been granted the opportunity to truly “be one” with nature. I’m a total nature nut, but my lack of a vehicle means I can’t even head out camping in the middle of nowhere on weekends. As a matter of fact, I’ve never been camping in my entire life (which believe me, is the single fact that crushes me more and more every day). I really need to get away, if only for a week, and enjoy some serious one-on-one time with the elements. At least then I could have a more educated opinion based on first-hand experience. :slight_smile:

Man, I really do need to get away. It seems that with every month that goes by, I get more and more bitter. Civ really knows how to suck the life out of someone. :’(

#30

According to my own rules of moderation, I limit myself to asking questions or telling my own story, so no worries! ;D

The wikipedia definition of animism doesn’t satisfy me, to say the least. I experience animism differently. A brief lookup on wikipedia will not do the subject (as held here) justice.

As a moderator, I welcome you to ask questions of how others here experience animism.

I respect your right to not feel in accord with the animistic value system…you have however plopped yourself down in a haven of animists. :slight_smile:

#31

Hmm. um, well I guess what I have to say is not meant to make a point in an arguement or convince anybody to see things my way so much as to relate a story that presents another possibility.

I don’t believe that an animal can talk to me. I have had animals tell me things. Not just your basic “I’m thirsty”, “I’m hungry”, “bugger off” kind of communication but abstract concept kind of stuff. So my “belief” doesn’t come from faith, it comes from experience. It’s not a belief system, it’s knowlege. I’ve lived enough to have seen how things work and that’s what my practice is based on.
Part of that came from seeing how other ways don’t work, and being desperate enough to open myself up to another possibilty.

#32
I can inform you that I indeed know nothing of animism. However, a brief lookup in dictionaries indicates definitions such as "the doctrine that all natural objects and the universe itself have souls" and "the belief that inanimate objects and the phenomena of nature are endowed with personal life or a living soul". At this point in my life, I can say I don't believe much in animism.

The problem with dictionary definitions is that they force everything in the world into a manageable, pigeon-holed frame which can be dissected neatly with the intellect.

In my experience, animism is not a kind of faith or belief system, though it is often labeled as such by well-meaning but confused anthropologists.

There is nothing to believe… it is just a form of experience that grows naturally from spending time in and being fully present with the natural world around us. I don’t need to believe in the sun’s awareness or that butterflies awareness, I just experience them as aware. This kind of experience was generally very foreign to white westerners when the pilgrims landed on the East Coast of this country. Such experiences to them were reserved for only their saints. It continues to be generally foreign to Westerners.

The concept of someone experiencing the life around them as aware to the western intellectual mind demands an explanation. The most convenient is to stick it in the category of a “belief system.”

The idea of things in the natural world have souls is a Christian interpretation of the animist experience.

I don’t think that “non-believers can’t possibly have respect for the world around them” is true. For starters, in my mind animists are generally not “believers” of any kind. Most animists I have met became animists because of their experiences. They didn’t go down a list of belief systems and say,“Oh, I like this one.”

Though, I do believe that when you experience the awareness of the life around you can not easily continue treating life indifferently. I don’t think that if people in our culture started “believing” in animism that the world would be a better place. I do think, however, that if lots of people in our culture got to experience the awareness of life they would feel more connected to the natural world and would feel a sense of duty to caretake our planet more, instead of consuming resources without stopping.

I think my true problem is that I haven't been granted the opportunity to truly "be one" with nature. I'm a total nature nut, but my lack of a vehicle means I can't even head out camping in the middle of nowhere on weekends. As a matter of fact, I've never been camping in my entire life (which believe me, is the single fact that crushes me more and more every day). I really need to get away, if only for a week, and enjoy some serious one-on-one time with the elements. At least then I could have a more educated opinion based on first-hand experience.

Yeah. Its that one-on-one time from which the animistic experience grows.

#33

Author Daniel Quinn described an experience that might be called animistic in nature, in his book Providence. His experience occurred while he was working in a monastery.

Here it is, quoted below:

I went last, stepped over the threshold, turned around to close the door, then turned back to face the sunshine.

And the god spoke.

I put it this way. I could put it other ways. I could say that, when I turned to face the sunshine, the veil that clouds our vision was gone from my eyes, and for the first time I saw the world as it is.

There are no words for it.

Someone blind from birth can’t imagine what the sighted mean by color, can’t fathom what this property might be. If all language were the product of a blind race, the word color would not exist, and if one of that blind race were suddenly to become sighted, he would be unable to describe what he saw; the words would simply not be there for him to use, and this is the way it is for me: The words are simply not there.

But I can put it other ways, and I will, because that’s what I can do.

I turned and faced the sunshine, and the breath went out of me as if someone had punched me in the stomach. That was the effect of receiving this sight, of seeing the world as it is. I was astounded, bowled over, dumbfounded.

I could say that the world was transformed before my eyes, but that wasn’t it–and I knew that that wasn’t it. The world hadn’t been transformed at all; I was simply being allowed to see it the way it is all the time. I, not the world, had been transformed.

I’m trying. Be patient. We’ve reached the single most important hour of my life, and I have to get it right, have to come as close as I can to getting it right.

I gasped, literally gasped. I lost my breath, seeing that.

Everything was on fire.

I can say it that way, but when you say that something’s on fire, you think of the fire as being on it,–as a substance that is on the thing.

That wasn’t it.

Everything was burning. Yes, that’s better. From within, everything was burning.

Every blade of grass, every single leaf of every single tree was radiant, was blazing–incandescent with a raging power that was unmistakably divine.

I was overwhelmed. In a single second of this, of seeing this truth, tears flooded my eyes and poured down my face as I walked along behind the novices. It was strange to see fence posts sitting dead and silent and cold in the midst of this tremendous, thrumming effulgence.

In this vast, scintillating landscape, my nearsightedness was of no account at all. For as far as I could see, for hundreds of yards, thousands of yards, I could distinguish with absolute clarity each leaf, each blade of grass–no two alike anywhere. Each was crackling and trembling and all but exploding with the raging power that animated it.

Again I describe that power as raging. Look into a furnace blazing at its top capacity. Look into the heart of a nuclear reaction perhaps. The power that I saw thundering around me makes all our stock images of power seem feeble. But there was no violence or hatred in this rage. This was a rage of joy, of exuberance. This was creation’s everlasting, silent hallelujah.

You know the sparklers they sell around July 4th. The world was ablaze with sparklers. Every blade of grass, every leaf of every tree wascharged with energy–packed, jammed, evanescent with energy, which radiated forth into the air irresistability. The whole landscape pulsed, breathed, moved, was made iridescent with this energy. I think, with what can be done in film today, I could produce a cinematic approximation of what I saw. It would be magnificent, but you would of course know it was just a trick. What I was seeing was reality, was the world as it actually is, every moment of every day…

No, no, I wasn’t in a trance. I wasn’t in anything remotely like a trance. I was gathering kindling, for God’s sake! I had trailed the novices for awhile, walking through the madly radiant land, then had been signed[The novices only used sign language] to head off into the brush to get started. So there I was, stooping and picking up sticks, and breaking them across my knee or leaning them up against a rock to stamp them into smaller lengths, and making pile that would later be loaded into a cart, and all the while tears were pouring down my cheeks like a waterfall. I was lucky I was working alone, though I don’t think I would have felt the least self-conscious about my tears if there had been dozens around me. Who could have cared? Certainly not me.

It lasted for about an hour. The radiance just faded away, gradually subsided, and the world resumed its normal appearance. The rest of the crew came along, and we loaded up the kindling and headed back.

I post this only with the intention of sharing. I don’t think anyone can be “converted” to animism, and I certainly wouldn’t try!

:wink: ;D

Also, at the risk of being judged harshly and/or misunderstood I wanted to share my blog with ya’ll:

http://weaveyourdream.blogspot.com/

#34

Ah, those last 4 replies definitely clear up some of my misgivings regarding animism. I am going to refrain from talking about it further until I’ve had the chance to surround myself with nature, miles from any cement.

Thanks to all of you. I’ll make sure to share my personal findings whenever I manage to… find those findings. :slight_smile:

#35

I am fascinated with the response here, as I certainly was not trying to missionize anyone to pray to any natural object-- and don’t worry I don’t have kids, so I’m not teaching it to anyone! Just an answer to the question posed by the thread, sharing a story of my own.

I actually work in the field of science, biology, and perhaps you could say praying to the sun at sunset is a form of meditation to balance out all the quantification, statistical equations, rationality demanded by our society at large. Balance is a good thing.

I respect that people can be atheists. As an animist-in-training, I am not, and so far it has brought me a great deal of happiness being able to relate to nature in a way humans know how to do. Also a great way for me to start observing things outside more in detail, things I might miss filling out a data sheet. I have no interest in trying to prove anything to anyone, just relating my own experience.

#36

Hello,

Yes, I do pray, or more specifically, leave offerings to the Earth Mother and the full moon. I believe that these are entities with consciousness, much bigger than our own souls. I also think that belief is very important to communicate with these entities. I believe that they hear and listen to you.

I really don’t care if someone is a hard core athiest or Christian. If they believe that the Earth is alive and take care of her, than they are my friends.

It seems rather insignificant to me that someone who is an atheiest or very strictly religious would even try to challenge that. Without the Earth, we are nothing. We are not going to Mars. We are not building spaceships that will colonize the galaxy. we will not create artificial consciousness in a lab. We have one mother and we don’t respect her enough. Time to show some appreciation.

#37

I have this book called “L’énergie secrète de l’univers” (The secret energy of the universe), and I don’t know of an english translation of it. The author, who is a french scientific journalist, searches the “Chi” and how science has started to validate it.

With some instrument, they have been able to detect the network of that subtle energy that covers our entire body and which the acupuncturists, and others know of and work with. This Chi is apparently composed of the same molecule(s) that is found in water, so I wonder if that’s why we can see “waves” in the air and thru out the observed portion of the universe as well as in/on the water. I’m not sure if I’m making any sense to you because I still have a hard time writing down my thoughts and intuitions, especially in english ?

Another thing I find interesting is the “discovery” of two specific elements located in our cells. One acts as an emitter and the other as a receptor, of electro-magnetic fields (EMF). So not only does “information” circulate thru the nervous and hormonal systems and so on, but it also appears that information travels via the EMF with the help of those elements in our cells (which I forget the names).

It has been observed that the amount of those elements (emitter-receptor) vary from one individual to another. Also, they have found that the “spring-finders” have quite a larger amount than other people. Birds have alot too.

So now , not only do we have personal experience to validate certain “natural” phenomenons such as; so called telepathy, communication with other than human life, and so on. Now, we are even able to scientifically observe some of those.

One last thing I’d like to mention in this post is the fact that it has also been observed, or deduced (not sure anymore) that “matter” is actually made of about 99% “energy” and 1 % either matter or some other thing. So it’s no wonder really that we are able to affect the so-called matter with our thoughts, emotions, etc. It is all one, interconnected and made of the same “raw material”…

Just sharing my observations…

#38

Throughout my existence my family has sampled pretty much every mainstream religion available to us, and over the years the act of praying has become more and more confusing to me.

Over the past 6 years, my family had had a major connection to Hinduism, mainly through an Indian saint/guru named Amma, who we have been seeing in Seattle once a year. My mother has become very devout, praying, chanting, singing Bhujans and learning as much as she can about what Amma teaches. I also have a huge connection to this woman, who for me is more of a guide and a role model for me than anything. They call her the divine mother, and in a way when you meet her, that’s just what she is. Everything about her radiates the energy of a mother. And in Hinduism, prayer is a common and almost required act.

Anyways, I’m getting carried away with all that…My mother has recently been encouraging me to “pray” more often. But I have been very resilient to this. I don’t believe there is just one way to pray, it doesn’t have to be sitting down and chanting or talking to a god or spiritual figure. I don’t pray in my mind, I don’t ask anyone to give me what I desire for myself or for the world. I will things to manifest into my life by being grateful to the universe for giving me what I need. By having a positive outlook on my life and cherishing everything and being grateful, I can bring what I desire into existence. I think that maybe this is a form of prayer, but it doesn’t need to be spoken in my opinion. I think just living in happiness and gratitude is a prayer in itself.

#39

“When you make your life a prayer of thanksgiving, every step you take will be blessed by the Great Flow of the universe.”

  • mai own personal saying
#40

Wow, what great responses! :slight_smile:

Thank you all!

And just to show you how far behind I am in reading posts…

[quote=“heyvictor, post:10, topic:879”]Here is a story about prayer and how it works in my life.

I don’t believe that I do anything on my own without the help of the spirits.
Last fall my wife and I were asked to take a young girl into our home to foster as our daughter. We have known her since she was born and were auntie and uncle to her. She was in the custody of social services in the US and we live in Canada.
We said we were willing. Realistically there were many, many reasons why this would probably never happen. Our house doesn’t conform to any kind of codes, it’s very small. We don’t have a lot of money. There were a bunch of hoops to get through.
From the beginning we prayed and told the spirits that we would be willing to do what is in the best interest for our girl but that we had our limits. We would take care of the things that were in our power to take care of but if it was to happen the spirits would have to take care of the many obstacles that were in the way. We decided that there were so many reasons for it to not happen that if it did then it must be the right thing. Over the course of the last nine months of negotiating, one by one the obstacles fell away. In some cases it was amazing how they fell away. As if the spirits were showing us that it was the right thing and we shouldn’t worry about that.
Up until recently there were still doubts. Different agencies were disagreeing about jurisdiction and responsibilty. But I figured that the spirits would not have brought us this far only to let it all fall apart.
After nine months of working this all out she arrived last week.

We pray about the situation, not a specific outcome. We offer ourselves in service. We ask for help in coming to a clear understanding.
Instead of assuming that we know what needs to happen and praying for that, we pray to see it clearly, and to understand how we can be of service,or not.[/quote]

Thanks Billy, I don’t think I’ve ever read or heard any better description of prayer.