Hello everyone, I’m new here.
I have been thinking about this question, but I don’t have any “solution” for it.
To be blunt, what is to stop civilization from coming back in the future, after the collapse? It may perhaps take thousands of years, but is it not inevitable that sometime, another person will “re”-discover industrialism?
And without technology and recorded history, how can one stop it from happening? By myths? Legends?
Civilization isn’t even really here, so how can it come back?
There is an idea of civilization that we all strive for, but never has society completely lived up to the concept ‘civilization’. Sure, in passing, many cultures appeared to have achieved civilization, but considering our present state, just how far away are we from our ideal?
Our greatest challenge is to learn to accept the idea that the dream of civilization is attached to the human condition. Otherwise, Mayans wouldn’t have built pyramids, and islanders wouldn’t have built moas.
We credit Catal Huyuk(northwestern Africa) as the birthplace of civilization. But certainly, the idea had be toyed with many times before they got far enough to leave any evidence.
We are simply experimenting with what works and what doesn’t work. WE’ve gt a whole big-ass library of both, and it’s time to put them to use.
And there’s the human impertinence that drives them towards the new and shiny.
We whites are a broken people. we have been slaves for so long we now cheerfully accept the bidding of our masters. It’s hard to admit we’re wrong, it’s even harder to learn new ways of life.
And so, the promise of total comfort, of zero suffering will linger, but we will find more constructive ways of doing things as we undo cultural conditioning.
The thing that we call civilization is nothing more than many people serving an idea. We must learn to constructively learn to serve as well as invent. A balance of servitude and discovery will keep humanity from being blind again, that, and the internet.
AS the internet follows the Universal Archetype, I believe it has earned a permanent place at the table of life. And so, we must for ourselves learn how to deconstruct our binary right and wrong judgements we have made about human endeavors as we ran out the escape hatch.
As you suggested, communication is vital. But rather than demonize that which is dear to us (technology, recorded history, and the other human endeavors that have made our change in mind finally viable and constructive), how do we help humans permanently strike a balance between creation and servitude?
Trickster, hello welcome to the forum!
??? How do you? Do you do anything? What do you do to “stop it from happening?” Do myths, legends work for you?
If so, which ones? I’d like to here about any myths and legends that work for you. Do you consider stories myths and legends
To answer your question I donno.
Ran Prieur writes about this a lot, you may wish to check out his website.
Essentially, the idea is that probably we can’t, but if we can, it is through histories, myths and legends that say “we tried that once, it sucked, we stopped doing it.”
Don’t worry about it.
Heard something once on this very thing which has made quite abit of
sense to me. Now what I heard was this … that after the collpase, we
Humans become the Endangered Species and return to a Hunter-Gatherer
type on existence. But that in the future, our human progress will be in the
Spiritual and not the Physical and Material. And what will prevent us from
returning to this type of present day existence? It is that we now have
depleted all of the resources from near the surface of the earth that has
brought about this so called civilization to it’s present day. Now days so
much of the resources are so buried deep in the earth that it takes a
achine to get to them. Soooo when the machines stop, so will we will
be prevented from utilizing these resources. And so then we will be
prevented from coming back to this so called civilized but actually barbaric
existence in any near time period. This has made alot of sense to me when
I heard this, actually read this. I read this from the book “Spiritwalker”,
where someoone saw 5,000 years into the future. It is an interesting
scenerio.
And further on this, think about how much we have used up the basic
resources that have built our civilization. Now days people not only talk
about Peak Oil but Peak Other Things Also. And with our civilization
continuing to go full speed ahead in it’s greeds not thinking that all of these
basic metals and resources on this planet are in a finite supple. And indeed
now how much of these basic metals and resources which in times past
were located near the surface of the earth. Now are soooo buried deep in
the earth or in such remote locals like at the bottom of the oceans … I can
really see this that once all of these mega machines stop - then they will
stop permenently. And then we humans go back being Hunters and Gathers
for eons like we wer meant to be. And after a short time in actuality, how
much would also some of these artifacts which our so called civilization has
built also vanish. The book, “The World Without Us” is also a Great Read!
Just my two cents worth.
You make some good points; they have been brought to my attention in the past and (in playing devil’s advocate) I found it difficult to think of arguments against them.
I was in a conversation w/ a co-worker about the writer Margaret Atwood, who is one of my favorites. Coincidentally, the only book of hers he has read is the only one I haven’t – “Oryx and Crake”. Apparently this idea is discussed in that book as well. So tack that one on the reading list…
Regarding the points you made, you may be interested in contributing to the discussion I started, “Irreversible Effects of Civilization.”
What about abiotic oil? Sure many of you might say that then concept is ridiculous, but think about it this way: How were fossil fuels formed in the first place? They were formed when the remains of dead lifeforms were compressed over millions and/or billions of years. Given that amount of time, what is to say that fossil fuels might replenish, and be harnessed once again?
Also of note is this part of a book I read called Nonzero that dealt with directionality in history. It was called “The Inevitablity of Agriculture”. Here is it’s point put into my words: You reject the noble savage idea that man was better somehow before the emergence of civilization, but consider this: If mankind is biologically or psychologically
the same as he was then, then it stands to reason that status motivated him just as much then as it does now. And what determined status back then? The economies back then were gift and barter economies, but if you had little to offer, then you wouldn’t make it that far. Therefore status was achieved by those constantly in a position to give. Planting crops would allow more food, which would put a clan in a barteirng position. And the more status hungry would rise to the top, eventually establishing heirchies.
Animism might slow the process slightly, but once agriculture is fully established, farmers will be pit against ‘pests’, ‘vermin’ and the weather, in an effort to protect his livelihood. Not the best situation for an animistic society to emerge.
Basically, once the conditions emerge again, so will civilization. Without protection, the remnants of civilization won’t last long enough to stop it, and unless there is evidence for them, the proponents of civilization will reject any myths or stories about the past. So therfore three things must be done:
As for 3, I’m thinking Radio. How about you guys. Also, you’ve got another issue: What to put in the narrative. More on that later.
having periods of using oil 400 years every 65 million years, I think , is DOABLE for mother nature?
WHy are we so afraid of the lifeblood of mother? Why are we still shackled by our fear that we endeavor so stringently to fight off future fears that haven’t even arisen yet (except in the infinite possibilities of mind?)
what ever you put in your stories, no one but you will tell them if they aren’t about a people who moved forward, beyond death and fear. if these stories arent about us, specifically, our ancestors, specifically, our Grandfathers, specifically, and generations beyond, all at the same time, then we re doing nothing but spinning webs in the wind.
Your stories have to be specific to you, and how you relate with your near, far, and future ancestors. YOu can’t just plop your white ass into a new story, you have to go to the land, but realize you are taking brave first steps. There is little to look back on when it comes to who you are now, The past is as useful as the imagination, but it is only as useful as one applies. Learn about how your great-grandfather did this or that, connect to that, find out how that connects your descendents to you.
The question of the hour, week, year, lifetime: How will I connect my great-grandfather to my great granddaughter?
We are the agents of change, ‘they’ are you, but not until you are dead. Keep that in mind for the next few actions you take over the next couple of hours or days.
Can some one try to counter my argument?
Arguments such as abiotic oil don’t need countering, they need evidence. You don’t just toss out an idea, and ask us to disprove it. Instead you support your position first, and then we look at that support to see if it is adequate.
Will civilization come back? I think it’s probably unavoidable locally, but it may be possible to prevent localized civilizations from growing beyond their bounds. In other words, cities may be inevitable, but empires can be stopped.
Okay, the main thing you seem to be arguing is for a ‘return’ to a input-output, merit-based economy. “To each according to their ability.”
There are two things here that are hard to communicate to people new with the material. The first thing is, that our economy is ALREADY merit-based, there is just an enomous incentive to cheat. And so, the best cheaters win. Two, we are trying to move AWAY from a merit-based economy.
Here is an underlying assumption that isn’t always obvious, and it is my second point; Birth is your ticket to the table. That’s all you have to do, is be born. Your living, breathing body is your ticket to being fed. That’s hard for us to imagine, what it’s like, because we are still working under the assumption that there is an incentive to somehow cheat.
One must experience, for a lengthy period of time, social situations where there is no incentive to cheat, because no one is withholding their resources.
I think our little campouts and get togethers strike this important point into the back of our heads, that it’s okay to share yourself, no one will cheat you, it’s okay to depend on others, no one will withhold their energy and abundance.
My good friends and I take a stand for abundance. It’s those who can’t see abundance who are so easily swindled, as they have become attached to one thing or another.
it’s the evaluation itself that Daniel Quinn tries to teach us. It is a difficult lesson, because we still so righteously cling to our notions that ‘civilization is bad’, but at some time, even that last reserved judgement has to slip away. Saying one worker is more valuable than another, or that one person can earn more than another, is the failure of humanity, and the birth of slavery, civilization, and so on.
This keystone, I feel, leads us off the cliff of The Way, and back down cheater’s row.
Each person is equipped to share. While they may not find common ground quantitatively, that’s civilization’s goal, something we are here to renounce. Qualitatively, each person has equal amounts to share. Therefore, we drop the one, and adopt the other.
What say you?
Civilization isn't even really here, so how can it come back?
Well, let us say the mainstream-kind of society that we have today.
Sure, in passing, many cultures appeared to have achieved civilization, but considering our present state, just how far away are we from our ideal?
Interesting. Can this not also be said about “our” ideal society? Is civilization objective?
How do you? Do you do anything?
Hmm, I do not quite understand.
What do you do to "stop it from happening?"
I guess there isn’t much I can do.
Do myths, legends work for you?
They can be intruiguing, yes. But I think one also should have to take a look on the human history. People used to believe in myths and legends for a very long time, but then we developed the tools of scrutiny and evidence, alongside rational thinking and thus science.
With that came new looks on myths and legends, they became imaginations and now we largerly dismiss them as fantasies.
So, if the current level of society will ever come back in the future, the new legends that start today could be found. What they may do with that information is up to them. What would we do if we found out that this is the second time, or third, civilization has been around?
Thanks for answering my questions , Trickster!
So ya don’t know what I mean by…
How do you? Do you do anything?
OK.
Hmmm…
I mean, how do you “stop it from happening” And, I mean, do you do anything to “stop it from happening.” What works for you to “stop it from happening.”
What do you do to "stop it from happening?"
You replied, “I guess there isn’t much I can do.”
What do you mean, I mean, because I lack understanding of b-english I don’t understand; care to elaborate?
Go, Ran, I agree! Unfortunately some of us keep on trying it even though it sucks and they will just go down harder with the CRASHes because they never altered, or “stopped doing it,” or crafted something else. Yeah but, of course I don’t really know what will happen. ;D 
People who tried over and over to get airplanes up in the air without the knowledge and appliance of the Law of Aerodynamic into their crafts designs failed every time to get the creations flying…when people who learned and began to apply the knowledge of this law to their flying crafts they got their flying crafts to fly and they wouldn’t ever think about ditching the law or returning to their drawing boards without the usage of the law to make new airplanes and other flyers, and I believe they’d reason that with, “we tried making ships fly without the Law of Aerodynamics when we didn’t know about its existence, it sucked, so once we found the law we haven’t given it up since, it works.” 
MOD: There…I hope that clears things up.
I mean, how do you "stop it from happening" And, I mean, do you do anything to "stop it from happening." What works for you to "stop it from happening."
I still do not understand. What do I do to stop what from happening?
What do you mean, I mean, because I lack understanding of b-english I don't understand; care to elaborate?
Well, I thought you asked what I did to stop civilization from returning in the future, and I replied that I don’t think there is much I can do about it.
I still do not understand. What do I do to stop what from happening? [/quote]
I mean what you mean, brother. So if anything, what do you do to stop it (the return of civ) from happening? And as a side note, humans have never gone without technology and as long as we evolve into the future we will probably continue to have some type of technology, brother.
Oh, yeah I forgot. Nevermind; forget I said anything. :-X
I mean what you mean, brother. So if anything, what do you do to stop it (the return of civ) from happening? And as a side note, humans have never gone without technology and as long as we evolve into the future we will probably continue to have some type of technology, brother.
Oh, I see now. Sorry.
I have been thinking about it a little, and I guess that if myths are to be used they will begin after the “collapse”. I mean, myths and legends can not begin now, because I don’t really know how this whole mess will end.
:-X [zip]
One, I might need to elaborate on what I said. The basic point was that if hunter gatherers were biologically the same but culturally different, then they would still have the drive for status. It would just manifest in a different form. Seen that most hunter gatherer used gift economies, imagine what would happen if a hunter gatherer constantly broke deals with his fellow tribesmen. He would be ostracized. What then would allow for high status? Think of it like this - The more you have, the more you are in a position to give. (This appears especially in the Potlach ceremony) In this way, planting crops would tempt the more status hungry, eventually leading to social stratification. Not in all societies, but in many.
Two, ah never mind.
No, I imagine the folks would just stop making deals with the person. That doesn’t mean they would turn on him/her or begin outcasting him/her.
My apologies, I tried but I can’t or don’t think in a b-english way anymore, unless I don’t think then I can.