Circumcision

Regenerative Culture Birthing & Caring for Children
#24

Actually, an intact penis is pretty easy to keep clean. Only the outside of a baby’s penis needs to be cleaned; the foreskin should never be forcibly retracted. Overzealous cleaning probably causes a lot of infections. Females have more folds and crevices than intact males and no one suggests surgery to keep them clean. here’s what the American Academy of Pediatrics has to say:
http://www.cirp.org/library/normal/aap//

Foreskin Hygiene: The foreskin is easy to care for. The infant should be bathed or sponged frequently, and all parts should be washed including the genitals. The uncircumcised penis is easy to keep clean. No special care is required! No attempt should be made to forcibly retract the foreskin. No manipulation is necessary. There is no need for special cleansing with Q-tips, irrigation, or antiseptics; soap and water externally will suffice.

Foreskin Retraction: As noted, the foreskin and glans develop as one tissue. Separation will evolve over time. It should not be forced. When will separation occur? Each child is different. Separation may occur before birth; this is rare. It may take a few days, weeks, months, or even years. This is normal. Although many foreskins will retract by age 5, there is no need for concern even after a longer period. [1984 version only: No harm will come in leaving the foreskin alone.] Some boys do not attain full retractability of the foreskin until adolescence

#25

Yeah starfish I had just read that. I’ll comment that it was an age I can remember that my mom told me to retract the skin and wash there. I don’t actually ever remember her doing such a thing for me.

I think Judaism's got a lot going for it with how much wild, tribal custom they've preserved. They're going to have a head start over most of us when it gets down to it, I think.
But to me it's this orthodox dogmaticism I am looking to get away from. I don't want to be bent over by enumerous rules imposed by men/civilization/culture, for daily living. But as I said before I can see and understand the power of a group ritual, and how it can bring people together, in that I see nothing wrong.
#26

Tribal peoples describe their societies as, first and foremost, “traditional.” They’re pretty keen on the dogmatism. The real difference is, are these traditions that work for people, or not?

#27

I’d like to elaborate that if a tradition is truly a burden, then it’s probably not something that really works.

Idle Theory and all that…

#28

I’ll second that. But there’s a big difference between orthodoxy and tradition. The difficulty with tradition is that it can be inflexible, it fails to adapt to rapidly changing conditions. However, when the tradition fits the conditions, it’s excellent.

Orthodoxy, on the other hand, is a limiter. It works on a “it’s bad unless we say it’s good” philosophy. The last thing I want is an “anything goes” philosophy, but I do prefer a “when in doubt, try it out” approach to new things.

As always, this is in my idiolect. I may be off from dictionary definitions. But what I’m really saying is that there’s a subtle difference between two similar outlooks.

#29

Hello–

[phew!]
So I have to believe we come into the world with fairly low maintenance equipment. I wonder if all those infections have more to do with (in addition to overzealous cleaning) standard american diet and lifestyle, like yeast infections and whatnot.

#30

This organization really helped Annie (My wife) out when she had to make a decision on whether or not to circumcise Daniel (He is eight now). She decided against it, and doesn’t regret it. Daniel hasn’t experienced any problems, so far.

http://www.nocirc.org/

Take care,

Curt

#31

For whatever reason, I was not circumcised (never have asked my parents about it), but I’m glad they didn’t. I was fairly young when I learned others had something different about their penises (pre-school boys are fairly unabashed in the bathroom). And in high school, I heard a few slights against uncircumcised penises. I never quite understood this, I like mine just fine the way it is.

As far as cleaning, up until the last year (and even now infrequently) I’ve never ever taken extra care to keep things clean (pulling the foreskin back as i was instructed to do when i was four or so) and I’ve never been infected or had any problems. As far as I can tell, it seems to keep clean on its own for the most part. Maybe I’ve just been lucky and should take better care, but all has been well so far…

I have a friend who’s vehemently against male circumcision… because circumcision leaves the glans exposed it becomes less sensitive, making sex less pleasurable. He was upset about it, so he stretched his skin back using some DIY voodoo. He once described it to me (maybe it involved a paperclip?) and it didn’t sound fun or healthy, but apparently it worked.

#32

I’m really surprised by the number of people who’ve been circumsized. I thought it was really rare these days, and only done among conservative Jews.

Is it standard practice for a lot of hospitals (for hygienic reasons)? Are there any indigenous cultures that circumsize?

#33

Foreskin stigma??! I thought it was the other way around (“lack thereof” stigma). Huh…

Maybe I’m an exception to the norm, but honestly I have had very few experiences of people talking about social expectations regarding circumcision.

#34

Well circumcision had it’s boost in popularity after ww2 (I think), I don’t exactly remember why but…
There are other peoples that perform circumcision, but they all (I believe) make a claim to being a part of the Israelites (like of the lost tribes etc.

#35

nope

yep (and yes, hygiene is the usual reason given)

#36

Hey all,

Since we have been born Mother Culture has taught us to hate our bodies. I think this is a big reason why baby boys are circumcised, too.

http://www.endgamethebook.org/Excerpts/1-Premises.htm

Premise Fourteen out of Endgame: From birth on—and probably from conception, but I’m not sure how I’d make the case—we are individually and collectively enculturated to hate life, hate the natural world, hate the wild, hate wild animals, hate women, hate children, hate our bodies, hate and fear our emotions, hate ourselves. If we did not hate the world, we could not allow it to be destroyed before our eyes. If we did not hate ourselves, we could not allow our homes—and our bodies—to be poisoned.

Take care,

Curt

#37

I agree with most if not all of what was written on the link you posted.
However, whatever our feelings or Ideas about Curcumcision are here in this country, Or why it is done,
Curcumcision was and is practiced by a number of primitive tribes.
The austrailian Aboriginies, and the Yanamamo of south America are examples.
I think it is just a matter of preference or culture.
Many things can be an issue wether the people involved live within civilisation or not.
But I do agree that their seems to be something very wrong with
Us in this civilised world.
So many things affect us, and we may only recognise a few, sadly.
If we want to be truly free, then it is nessessary to take some radical steps.

#38

[quote=“Huby7, post:36, topic:371”]Hey all,

Since we have been born Mother Culture has taught us to hate our bodies. I think this is a big reason why baby boys are circumcised, too.

http://www.endgamethebook.org/Excerpts/1-Premises.htm

Premise Fourteen out of Endgame: From birth on—and probably from conception, but I’m not sure how I’d make the case—we are individually and collectively enculturated to hate life, hate the natural world, hate the wild, hate wild animals, hate women, hate children, hate our bodies, hate and fear our emotions, hate ourselves. If we did not hate the world, we could not allow it to be destroyed before our eyes. If we did not hate ourselves, we could not allow our homes—and our bodies—to be poisoned.

Take care,

Curt[/quote]

I know I must have read or heard that before, and normally I’m not so fond of Jensen, but this is wonderful.

#39

any given action could be done for many reasons. the intent doesn’t change the action, but it does change why it was done, and that could change the implications and impacts. this is a failure of reductionism.

i pull a weed. what is my intent? to eat it? one part of a larger genocidal effort?

a culture performs circumcisions. why? differentiation from other cultures? self hatred?

sometimes, intent matters.

'poligies if this borders on unsolicited advice. that’s not the spirit in which it was written. i just think there’s more than one level to this issue.

#40
i just think there's more than one level to this issue.

same here.

#41

As opposed to our culture’s systemic (and taboo) pederasty. Yes, we modern types have some solid ground to judge other folks on, eh? :slight_smile:

Rather than approving/disapproving of female genital mutilation, or Etoro pederasty, I think it comes down to this: since we have never experienced an intact family culture with a sustainable connection to the Land, we have no sane measure to judge another culture by. How about that for cultural relativism?

Even if it EVER became our business to judge and police other cultures, we have no tools to do so, as a culture. We don’t even know how to disagree without starting a war.

In our culture, we conflate conflict with violence, and intimacy with sex. Crying and mewing like preemies imprisoned within clear plastic boxes that number in the billions, and that stretch to the horizon, I find our opinions on just about anything suspect and irrelevant, as long as it doesn’t involve the immediate and pressing need of dealing with our own rended souls and families, our tiny little lungs and hearts starved for the oxygen of real human experiences that create whole people.

#42

My husband and I decided not to circumsize. Now my 3 year old is having issues with infections that are painful. Apparently his foreskin is not retracting as much as it should and it is easy for bacteria to get stuck. We bathe him and are very clean people, so this was in no way our fault. Now he needs to get circumsized at 3. I’m not saying everyone should, I wouldn’t judge anyone for the desisions they make with thier children, most people want to do the right thing for thier kids. I just want to make it known infections aren’t rare and only happen to people who don’t clean. I’m just saying I think there are real reasons to consider it, not just because most people are doing it. I don’t even know how to begin to explain to my son what the doctor is going to do to him this week and I wish we had done it in the beginning.

#43
My husband and I decided not to circumsize. Now my 3 year old is having issues with infections that are painful. Apparently his foreskin is not retracting as much as it should and it is easy for bacteria to get stuck. We bathe him and are very clean people, so this was in no way our fault. Now he needs to get circumsized at 3. I'm not saying everyone should, I wouldn't judge anyone for the desisions they make with thier children, most people want to do the right thing for thier kids. I just want to make it known infections aren't rare and only happen to people who don't clean. I'm just saying I think there are real reasons to consider it, not just because most people are doing it. I don't even know how to begin to explain to my son what the doctor is going to do to him this week and I wish we had done it in the beginning.

Has anybody else here had experiences similar to this? I know Daniel (He is 8) hasn’t had any problems so far.

ON EDIT: I asked my wife Annie about this as she has done ALOT of research on the subject and here are her thoughts:

"Hi, I’m sorry your son is going through painful infections. I just want to add a word of caution here though. Make very sure your doctors are not just jumping on circumcision as your only option as they tend to do this. They make a good deal of money off of this operation that is not covered by insurance. Foreskins can take many years to fully retract even up to 18 years. My son is 8 and his is still not fully retracted and he has had no infections. The penis (under the foreskin) should never be washed with soap. It is too caustic and can cause pain. Instead any amount of retracted foreskin should just be pulled back and rinsed with water. With an unretracted foreskin you can still pull back as much as possible, be careful to not pull to the point of pain and ripping, and rinsed with water. Soap can cause pain down there believe it or not.

Also, if you REALLY do NEED to circumcise him now at the age of three be glad its now and not as an infant. They can use painkillers for him now at the age of 3 that they could not use and birth. Birth circumcision is not just painfull it’s barbaric. The doctors CAN NOT use strong enough painkillers when babies are just that young, they can only use topicals. With the amount of pain caused by the circumcision at birth, topicals don’t work enough. Now that he is 3 they can safely use injectable pain relief. No matter how you explain this to him it WILL be better for him this way. It would be better actually that you were able to find a different solution. Please make sure your doctor has done everything else first. This is permanent.

Curt