Circumcision

Regenerative Culture Birthing & Caring for Children
#1

I wanted to move the discussion started in the breastfeeding thread over here, since it seems to be drifting away from the topic :).

The biggest problem I have with circumcision is the hypocritical stance taken by American culture. If you do it to a girl, it’s genital mutilation and an illegal human rights violation. If you do it to a boy, it’s business as usual and maybe even preferable. Also, it seems horrific to me because I wouldn’t want something comparable done to my genitals. I remember a scene in the movie “Robin Hood Men in Tights” where the rabbi offered to circumcise everyone. All the men grimaced in horror and grabbed their crotches protectively. Yet, the same people who laughed at that would think nothing of doing it (or having it done) to a baby.

#2

At hospitals they push for male circumcision as a “health concern”, stating that foreskins breed desease and the like. I think this stance is a direct result of many hospitals being affiliated with some religious organization.

In the end, my wife justified circumsizing our son because I was circumsized, most males in our culture are circumsized, and she didn’t want him to “feel weird about his dick.” After another 5 years of marriage, I realize that the real reason is that my wife has a little demon that whispers to her that her family will ostracize her if she doesn’t conform, and it takes some serious conviction for her to overcome the demon. Fortunately, she had such conviction regarding breastfeeding, and weathered her family’s abuse. Unfortunately, she had no such conviction regarding circumcision.

#3

I remember when we were expecting. We wanted to wait until birth to find out the sex, so there was this lingering question “To circumsize, or not to circumsize?”. We really didn’t know which way to go. I guess it’s pretty fortunate that we had a girl.

Yeah, this is the only medical reason I’ve ever encountered and I have some difficulty in taking it to heart.

#4

Here’s an interesting story related to what you were saying, Andrew:

When my husband and I were researching the issue, he initially said the same thing as your wife: we should have our child circumcised because he was circumcised. He called his parents to talk to them about it and found out that his father is intact. It kind of put the brakes on the “just like daddy” argument.

#5

We opted to circumcise for the “just like daddy reason”. Ironically, our hospital (which sucked in terms of breastfeeding issues) was great in terms of non-bias on circumcision. Or maybe it was just the fact that my wife’s ObGyn did the circumcision, and she was really open about it. Even more ironcally, she is Jewish.

In retrospect, I don’t recommend it. We still had issues with the circumcision–not with cleanliness, but with the shaft skin sticking to the glans.

The biggest problem I have with circumcision is the hypocritical stance taken by American culture. If you do it to a girl, it's genital mutilation and an illegal human rights violation.

I don’t think you can completely compare male and female circumcision. Male circumcision does not remove the glans and is not intended to curb sexuality. While I agree that it amounts to “mutilation” I don’t think it compares to a clitoriectomy.

#6

I don’t think you can completely compare male and female circumcision. Male circumcision does not remove the glans and is not intended to curb sexuality. While I agree that it amounts to “mutilation” I don’t think it compares to a clitoriectomy.[/quote]

Good point. I thought, tho’, that there were different forms of female circumcision…? Could be wrong, not really all that familiar w/ the issue.

#7

It can be a health concern. My mother tells the story of a neighbor’s concern over her baby son’s condition. Turns out she didn’t know how to clean it; she’d never had contact with an uncircumcised penis before. So it went uncleaned. So it got infected. That can become a health concern. No doubt about it, circumcision does make it a lot easier to keep clean. That has less to do with religious affiliation, than the hospital’s experience that most of its patients will not know how to perform some of the most basic tasks. They know what idiots most people are, and that makes circumcision something you might want for legitimate health reasons, all religious views aside.

As far as the “cruelty” of it, yes, it’s mutilation. The Romans were horrified by it, too. But most culture has its various mutilation rites. Ritual scarification and body modification are commonplace. I already mentioned the Australian Aborigine emu-penis tradition that never fails to send shivers down my spine. But ritual scarification and body modification exist in many, many tribal societies, from early infancy (Yoruba infants are cut on the chin after six weeks), through adolescence and adulthood. They often take part in rites of passage, and mark tribal identity, just like circumcision in Jewish tradition. It can hurt, but it can also form a bond of mutual passage that can be even more powerful than the pain.

All in all, there’s not much argument for circumcision, but there’s also not much against it. Particularly as a matter of tribal identity, there’s no reason to consider it “bad,” just like in the arms of a competent parent there’s no medical reason to consider it “good.” But I think that if you have an existing tribal tradition (and, religious beliefs aside, Judeo-Christian circumcision is precisely that), breaking that for the latest fad in child-rearing ideology does more harm than good, by alienating them from the tribe. That’s going to last a lot longer than the pain of the procedure.

#8
Good point. I thought, tho', that there were different forms of female circumcision...? Could be wrong, not really all that familiar w/ the issue.

I stand corrected. According to wikipedia, the term clitoridectomy actually usually refers to removal of the hood which would be analogous to removing the foreskin. Apparently it represents a “milder” form of female genital cutting. It seems to be the exception to other types of mutilation that target the clitoris and/or labia in an attempt to sexually tame the girl.

I still don’t think, overall, that male circumcsion generally compares.

#9
I still don't think, overall, that male circumcsion generally compares.

I dunno; sounds an awful lot like ethnocentrism. “My cultural mutilation is much more mild than that!”

You should read some of the thngs the Romans had to say about Jewish circumcision. Sounds an awful lot like Westerners talking about female circumcision now.

What works may not always be pretty, but different places create different cultures with different customs, and as much as emu-penis makes my skin crawl, it works for them.

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Admin note: fixed the quote markup

#10
I dunno; sounds an awful lot like ethnocentrism. "My cultural mutilation is much more mild than that!"

You should read some of the thngs the Romans had to say about Jewish circumcision. Sounds an awful lot like Westerners talking about female circumcision now.

What works may not always be pretty, but different places create different cultures with different customs, and as much as emu-penis makes my skin crawl, it works for them.

Touche. I suppose that’s exactly what I’m expressing. thanks for pointing it out.

I appreciate the fact that you can step outside of your cultural comfort and look analytically at diverse mutilation customs, Jason. I guess I have more baggage than I realized. I felt that the scars on my dick are no big deal, but I had grown up without a glans, I would be pretty mad. But if I grew up in a culture where that was the norm, I could possibly (likely, even) have the same “no big deal” attitude about that.

#11

That ability to step out for a moment doesn’t come easily, but it’s worked for me. :slight_smile:

Actually, female circumcision is usually the case they bring up in anthropology classes to highlight why cultural relativism and human rights really can’t co-exist. Ultimately, human rights is our own “One Right Way.” When you get down to that level, well, that’s where your commitment really gets tested because, damn, that’s hard to just let go…

Well, that and the Etoro’s systemic pederasty, that’s another good one to really see whether or not you really believe in cultural relativism. :slight_smile:

#12

My dad was, I wasn’t. My older brother was as well, my younger brother wasn’t. My older brother is my half brother (same mom). To be honest I don’t know what my parents rationale about it was…

I remember as a child wondering about it, to say I felt odd or awkward I don’t think holds, but I did realise something was different. My big question to myself remained, “how did they do it?” and in attempt to mimick found out it HURTS (not cutting, it wasn’t until I was older did I find out that’s how they did it. I wasn’t sure if they were born like that, or somehow pulled and held the skin back… (which was my attempt at mimickery and only to find it is too sensitive). My mother must have known what she was doing though because I remember being young and her bathing me and showing me how to clean myself, which is extremely simple… such that not being circumcised if anything would relate to someone being more clean rather than less.

I don’t understand how the mother could not know ‘how’ to clean it… rather it simply seems she didn’t or didn’t teach the importance of cleaning all of oneself.

I understand what Jason said about ritual and the importance in tribal identity,

breaking that for the latest fad in child-rearing ideology does more harm than good, by alienating them from the tribe. That's going to last a lot longer than the pain of the procedure.

I can’t say the fact that I was not circumcised is why I was ‘alienated’ (this implies I was alienated…). In a way I felt I was though growing up, but mainly because of my tendency to change my point of view and be open on anything and everything and my criticizing of popular culture and business.
I played sports (football (american) growing up, soccer, hockey, cross country, track) musicals, a garage rock band, other dramas, had parties at my house with tons of beer and drugs (those I barely participated…), took all AP classes, became an avid gamer, hung with every click of people. I had many ‘friends’, but not many friends. Though the ones I did have were very good friends for a very long time. Perhaps I was searching for acceptance? Or perhaps I was searching for a group of people I could really relate too? Really I don’t know… I just know it had nothing to do with being circumcised. But did this do me harm? Seen in my overall personality now? Perhaps to modern civilization. But again I relate I don’t think it had anything to do with circumcision. But now in this perspective, I can see it as just one more thing differing me from Civilization. I never received ritual body modification that follows this civilizations culture.

I’ll put it this way, to me, my physical break from society did me more good in the end (well we have yet to see, but it’s what I believe and what I think anyone else on this forum probably feels as well–breaking from civilization) than harm, and I remain unscathed of the physical pain. You can bet I won’t pass circumcision down onto my child though.

I’m not going to judge on whether ritual of this type is “good” or “bad” because frankly I don’t see things that way, or at least I try not to. It’s all subjective anyhow. Male circumcision probably does create a stronger ‘tribal’ bond, perhaps like piercings and tattoos among the groups of people that undertake them. And if I can use this that not being circumcised is like a break from the culture (as this is the defining physical ritual, where tattoos and piercing are seen almost as an initiation into a society, and one is usually not criticized or alienated from mainstream ‘civilized’ culture for not undertaking it, rather the opposite) well then, I’m glad it never happened to me.

I realize the power of it though, and if there was some type of ‘rewilding’ ritual, I can see the power of it too.

But then again, the fact that I wasn’t circumcised, I guess I can’t know if my life would be different if I were, so -shrugs-/ and I don’t know the life experience of others who weren’t to compare to.

#13
I don't understand how the mother could not know 'how' to clean it.. rather it simply seems she didn't or didn't teach the importance of cleaning all of oneself.

The mother was cleaning him; he was only a few weeks old.

#14

huh?

Turns out she didn't know how to clean it; she'd never had contact with an uncircumcised penis before. So it went uncleaned.
#15

You wrote:

I don't understand how the mother could not know 'how' to clean it.. rather it simply seems she didn't or didn't teach the importance of cleaning all of oneself.

But the kid was still too young to clean himself at all. Hadn’t gotten far enough for the mother not teaching anything to become a factor, she was still the one cleaning him. Like I said, it’s a matter of very basic competence, and a lot of people don’t have that.

#16
But the kid was still too young to clean himself at all. Hadn't gotten far enough for the mother not teaching anything to become a factor, she was still the one cleaning him. Like I said, it's a matter of very basic competence, and a lot of people don't have that.
something is not making sense, did I miss a translation? I realize the kid was too young when the mother was cleaning him, though I didn't know when I guess... but

You said

Turns out she didn't know how to clean it; she'd never had contact with an uncircumcised penis before. So it went uncleaned.

I said

I don't understand how the mother could not know 'how' to clean it.. rather it simply seems she didn't or didn't teach the importance of cleaning all of oneself.
and you replied with
The mother was cleaning him; he was only a few weeks old.

So what I gather is, the mother was cleaning him, but, not knowing “how” to clean it, she basically didn’t clean it. If you know how to wash/clean someone… well I don’t think it needs to be explained then “how” to. Which basically, I gather that either a. the mother just didn’t realize to wash under the skin, and didn’t know that it could be a health concern or b. she knew it was a health concern but didn’t realize you need to wash underneath the skin… which is the essence of how it’s a health concern so I would think that would count this one out…?
But maybe your explanation was correct >>

it's a matter of very basic competence, and a lot of people don't have that.
#17

She’d never seen an uncircumcised penis before. She had no idea what was what, what folded up, what could be cleaned under, or anything else. So underneath the foreskin went uncleaned, so he got infected.

#18

ahh okay, that’s what I thought, I just translated what you had said about the mom cleaning him to actually washing the various parts (under the skin)… but somehow wrongly…

#19

Somebody with a foreskin, please enlighten me.

Soon after my son’s birth, I kinda forgot about the whole circumcision circus. You throw a kid with a penis into the bathtub (river? pond?), he will play with his penis, guaranteed, right? I don’t think it took him long to find it. :wink: It seems to get clean, so far no problems. Teach what?

I remember hearing that it would be a few years before the foreskin can even be pulled back–should I (or his foreskin-free Dad) revisit this issue? Around what age?

#20

I don’t remember what age it was, but I remember when my mom was giving me a bath, telling me to wash there, and that’s about it. Simple. I’ve never heard the several years thing, and that’d seem to be weird with what Jason said. which I suppose is about all you have to watch out for, unless you have a condition where someone doesn’t wash for an extensive period of time…

And yeah, it’s pretty much guaranteed :stuck_out_tongue: