Circumcision

Regenerative Culture Birthing & Caring for Children
#16
But the kid was still too young to clean himself at all. Hadn't gotten far enough for the mother not teaching anything to become a factor, she was still the one cleaning him. Like I said, it's a matter of very basic competence, and a lot of people don't have that.
something is not making sense, did I miss a translation? I realize the kid was too young when the mother was cleaning him, though I didn't know when I guess... but

You said

Turns out she didn't know how to clean it; she'd never had contact with an uncircumcised penis before. So it went uncleaned.

I said

I don't understand how the mother could not know 'how' to clean it.. rather it simply seems she didn't or didn't teach the importance of cleaning all of oneself.
and you replied with
The mother was cleaning him; he was only a few weeks old.

So what I gather is, the mother was cleaning him, but, not knowing “how” to clean it, she basically didn’t clean it. If you know how to wash/clean someone… well I don’t think it needs to be explained then “how” to. Which basically, I gather that either a. the mother just didn’t realize to wash under the skin, and didn’t know that it could be a health concern or b. she knew it was a health concern but didn’t realize you need to wash underneath the skin… which is the essence of how it’s a health concern so I would think that would count this one out…?
But maybe your explanation was correct >>

it's a matter of very basic competence, and a lot of people don't have that.
#17

She’d never seen an uncircumcised penis before. She had no idea what was what, what folded up, what could be cleaned under, or anything else. So underneath the foreskin went uncleaned, so he got infected.

#18

ahh okay, that’s what I thought, I just translated what you had said about the mom cleaning him to actually washing the various parts (under the skin)… but somehow wrongly…

#19

Somebody with a foreskin, please enlighten me.

Soon after my son’s birth, I kinda forgot about the whole circumcision circus. You throw a kid with a penis into the bathtub (river? pond?), he will play with his penis, guaranteed, right? I don’t think it took him long to find it. :wink: It seems to get clean, so far no problems. Teach what?

I remember hearing that it would be a few years before the foreskin can even be pulled back–should I (or his foreskin-free Dad) revisit this issue? Around what age?

#20

I don’t remember what age it was, but I remember when my mom was giving me a bath, telling me to wash there, and that’s about it. Simple. I’ve never heard the several years thing, and that’d seem to be weird with what Jason said. which I suppose is about all you have to watch out for, unless you have a condition where someone doesn’t wash for an extensive period of time…

And yeah, it’s pretty much guaranteed :stuck_out_tongue:

#21

It can’t be that guaranteed; infection from improper cleaning is pretty common among uncircumcised males.

#22

Sure, but lets cross-reference that with people who feel that their penis is shameful, and so don’t pay it the proper attention.

I feel bad about having circumsized my son, because it is a tribal identity marker, for a tribe I don’t want to belong to and which I want to raise my son outside.

#23

I think Judaism’s got a lot going for it with how much wild, tribal custom they’ve preserved. They’re going to have a head start over most of us when it gets down to it, I think.

#24

Actually, an intact penis is pretty easy to keep clean. Only the outside of a baby’s penis needs to be cleaned; the foreskin should never be forcibly retracted. Overzealous cleaning probably causes a lot of infections. Females have more folds and crevices than intact males and no one suggests surgery to keep them clean. here’s what the American Academy of Pediatrics has to say:
http://www.cirp.org/library/normal/aap//

Foreskin Hygiene: The foreskin is easy to care for. The infant should be bathed or sponged frequently, and all parts should be washed including the genitals. The uncircumcised penis is easy to keep clean. No special care is required! No attempt should be made to forcibly retract the foreskin. No manipulation is necessary. There is no need for special cleansing with Q-tips, irrigation, or antiseptics; soap and water externally will suffice.

Foreskin Retraction: As noted, the foreskin and glans develop as one tissue. Separation will evolve over time. It should not be forced. When will separation occur? Each child is different. Separation may occur before birth; this is rare. It may take a few days, weeks, months, or even years. This is normal. Although many foreskins will retract by age 5, there is no need for concern even after a longer period. [1984 version only: No harm will come in leaving the foreskin alone.] Some boys do not attain full retractability of the foreskin until adolescence

#25

Yeah starfish I had just read that. I’ll comment that it was an age I can remember that my mom told me to retract the skin and wash there. I don’t actually ever remember her doing such a thing for me.

I think Judaism's got a lot going for it with how much wild, tribal custom they've preserved. They're going to have a head start over most of us when it gets down to it, I think.
But to me it's this orthodox dogmaticism I am looking to get away from. I don't want to be bent over by enumerous rules imposed by men/civilization/culture, for daily living. But as I said before I can see and understand the power of a group ritual, and how it can bring people together, in that I see nothing wrong.
#26

Tribal peoples describe their societies as, first and foremost, “traditional.” They’re pretty keen on the dogmatism. The real difference is, are these traditions that work for people, or not?

#27

I’d like to elaborate that if a tradition is truly a burden, then it’s probably not something that really works.

Idle Theory and all that…

#28

I’ll second that. But there’s a big difference between orthodoxy and tradition. The difficulty with tradition is that it can be inflexible, it fails to adapt to rapidly changing conditions. However, when the tradition fits the conditions, it’s excellent.

Orthodoxy, on the other hand, is a limiter. It works on a “it’s bad unless we say it’s good” philosophy. The last thing I want is an “anything goes” philosophy, but I do prefer a “when in doubt, try it out” approach to new things.

As always, this is in my idiolect. I may be off from dictionary definitions. But what I’m really saying is that there’s a subtle difference between two similar outlooks.

#29

Hello–

[phew!]
So I have to believe we come into the world with fairly low maintenance equipment. I wonder if all those infections have more to do with (in addition to overzealous cleaning) standard american diet and lifestyle, like yeast infections and whatnot.

#30

This organization really helped Annie (My wife) out when she had to make a decision on whether or not to circumcise Daniel (He is eight now). She decided against it, and doesn’t regret it. Daniel hasn’t experienced any problems, so far.

http://www.nocirc.org/

Take care,

Curt

#31

For whatever reason, I was not circumcised (never have asked my parents about it), but I’m glad they didn’t. I was fairly young when I learned others had something different about their penises (pre-school boys are fairly unabashed in the bathroom). And in high school, I heard a few slights against uncircumcised penises. I never quite understood this, I like mine just fine the way it is.

As far as cleaning, up until the last year (and even now infrequently) I’ve never ever taken extra care to keep things clean (pulling the foreskin back as i was instructed to do when i was four or so) and I’ve never been infected or had any problems. As far as I can tell, it seems to keep clean on its own for the most part. Maybe I’ve just been lucky and should take better care, but all has been well so far…

I have a friend who’s vehemently against male circumcision… because circumcision leaves the glans exposed it becomes less sensitive, making sex less pleasurable. He was upset about it, so he stretched his skin back using some DIY voodoo. He once described it to me (maybe it involved a paperclip?) and it didn’t sound fun or healthy, but apparently it worked.

#32

I’m really surprised by the number of people who’ve been circumsized. I thought it was really rare these days, and only done among conservative Jews.

Is it standard practice for a lot of hospitals (for hygienic reasons)? Are there any indigenous cultures that circumsize?

#33

Foreskin stigma??! I thought it was the other way around (“lack thereof” stigma). Huh…

Maybe I’m an exception to the norm, but honestly I have had very few experiences of people talking about social expectations regarding circumcision.

#34

Well circumcision had it’s boost in popularity after ww2 (I think), I don’t exactly remember why but…
There are other peoples that perform circumcision, but they all (I believe) make a claim to being a part of the Israelites (like of the lost tribes etc.

#35

nope

yep (and yes, hygiene is the usual reason given)