Alcohol as a problem of civilization

I want to have a discussion about alcohol.

Honestly: I’m drunk right now. I just had a fight with my friend. He tried to convince me that drinking was entirely his choice, and that it didn’t effect him in a way that we doesn’t have control over. Or something like that. Maybe he meant that he didn’t believe his lack of control was a bad thing. I forget.

My stance was that alcohol awakens an evil demon within all of us; one that feeds on neglect and social discomfort; one that needs people who feel awkward conversing and who don’t know the true meaning of love. We had a fight over this. I hope we can reconcile, but at the time I felt like punching him. I believe it was the demon who made me feel this way.

I think alcohol is evil. I think it is a drug that we use to substitute our real need of social relationship, and our need to connect with people. Because we live in a society that teaches us how to disconnect from all the life around us, I feel that we use intermediaries, (like alcohol and other drugs, which unfortunatly kill us), to “break the ice”. These things make us feel like we live in a whole culture full of nice, fullfilling people, but only for awhile. Then, the feeling decays. We become “hungover”. We tell ourselves “I’m never doing that again.” But then the loneliness overtakes us. We need that connection again. But, where does it come from? Does it come from our culture, which tosses us aside? Or does it come from the demon, who uses us for a moment, makes us feel like we belong, but then discards us itself, once it’s had its fill.

Why is that? I don’t believe I’m addicted to alcohol in the traditional sense. I can go months without a drink. But I do drink in social situations. I do feel like parties and bars and things are “more fun” if I have booze in me. This is a dis-ease. This is a problem. Why does it target us? Why does it latch onto us and not let go?

Is it ever going to go away? Is there a healthy way to continue using the drug, or is abstinence the only way out? How can I show the others around me, whom I love, that this demon really is a problem? Is it something only they can show themselves?

Am I being too dramatic? Am I overreacting to a little bit of harmless inebriation?

I’m really curious as to what this community’s thoughts are.

“White man medicine feels good now, hurts later, Indian medicine hurts now, feels good later.” I think I got that from “The Marriage of Sun and Moon” by Dr. Andrew Weil.

Everything can be a food (beer didn’t count during monk fasting rituals as cheating, delivering important nutrients), a medicine (think of the many helpful anti-spetic and calming effects of alcohol), and a poison (as a drug, it’s the leading killer of human beings).

It’s your choice, food, medicine, or poison. Make a choice, and don’t feel like a hippocrite because you took too much medicine.

Alcohol wasn’t invented any more than psilocybin mushrooms were invented. Animals world over wait for their favorite fruit to get ‘fizzy’, for a little change in mental mood.

I would say that daemon you are encountering is your civilized personality coming unglued from your ‘natural’ personality. I took a chance and wrote a bit about things the things I’ve seen in others about myself in “The Nature of Your Nurture: Rewilding the Mind

I hope that’s useful. Good luck and safe journey,
Tony

I like this quote a lot, though it does seem a little steeped in a stereotype.

It's your choice, food, medicine, or poison. Make a choice, and don't feel like a hippocrite because you took too much medicine.

That’s a really good point. I think I will allow myself to be more open to the fact that it can be a choice. However, a chinese finger trap is also a choice. And if you’re not careful, it can be a bitch to get out.

I would say that daemon you are encountering is your civilized personality coming unglued from your 'natural' personality.

Then why does that ungluing focus so much energy on negative actions? Is it the civilized personality trying to cling on for dear life? I’ve done a lot of stupid things while boozing.

Thank you for your kind comments Tony. I appreciate them a lot.

Well, I think the negativity is on conflict, and on a feral, underdeveloped ‘wild’ psyche. To discuss this deeply, we would have to throw up several models of mind to get to what would fit you well, so when I use one term or the other, it’s all done loosely, on the basis of trying to penetrate deeper, and not ‘name’ a thing as ‘this’ or ‘that’.

Think of your emotional self as the self that is supressed by your civilized psyche. Think of it as your impulsive self. Think of it as your inner ADD/ADHD, your scanning mind, or ‘tracker’ mind.

Think of your emotions as completely undeveloped. Think of how alcohol and other mind-altering substances bring out the emotional self to the fore-front.

Most mind-altering drugs aren’t mind-altering some much as they are ego-dissolving, or simply allowing other states to come to the front of the consciousness.

Go back to one of the models I mentioned above. Could it be possible your deamon is simply latent possibilty unfullfilled, and without purpose, without path, without guidence, it’s a feral child running around smashing walls and busting knuckles?

I doubt, under the influence of alcohol, your civilized tendencies are clinging. Alcohol loosens the social inhibitors, it weakens the barrier between I and They, which is what the ‘civilized’ self does so well at maintaining. I would suggest your unbecoming qualities are merely underdeveloped emotional wells pouring out, rather than being drawn form like a bucket in a well, or a hand in a stream.

Spend more time drinking with friends while camping, you’ll find it much more cathartic than sitting in four corners. This goes with any other social lubricant/ and/or mind-state-altering medicine. DOing these things outseide gives our emotions a natural outlet, just don’t do it in setting that you are in fear, that will make it worse. DO these things when you have lots more to look at.

There are 100 million more things going on in a single field than an entire museum of nature paintings, which is not to place the value of one or the other, but to state the simple fact that your mind is a tool that is designed to be operating at this huge level that we insiders, we domesticated animals, aren’t using. Without social nicety to maintain, an outpouring comes, and we feel like we are falling apart, but the truth is, we’re merely doing our best to deal with understimulation in an a sadly, misdiagnosed ‘overactive’ state.

ANytime I hear overactive mind, I know what is going is is understimulation. Same for emotions, it’s not an overacting emotional center, what is being experienced is understimulation, and artificial stimulations like alcohol and marijuana simply unmask these understimulations, they aren’t the primary causes.

When Rupert Alpert took to his guru a what is known as a ‘heroic’ dose of psilocybin mushrooms, the guru took the weighty dose, and after a few hours, appeared unaffected. The guru, the Maharashi something or other, had already his mind in balance. There was nothing left for the artificial stimulation to cause in him that he had not already experienced, not already dealt with, not already brought in balance against his domestication.

the stereotypical quote would be an Amazonian Indian stereotype, not sure on the etiology of that, when I get that book back, I’ll look it up…

Personally, I have a problem with alcohol. Other than the tinctures my wife makes I have never seen alcohol do anybody any good. I’ve seen a lot of pain and grief come from using alcohol.
The idea of alcohol being a “social lubricant” I find naive. It sounds like a drunk grasping at straws, looking for an excuse to drink.
The reason parties are more fun when you drink is because if your not on the same ignorant wave length as the rest of the drunks you can’t relate to them.

If you dont think you have a problem with it, try not drinking for a year and continuing to hang out with all your same friends. See how they treat you if you abstain and check out how they are when they drink and you’re sober.

I have done this. It is not pretty. They become annoying, self-absorbed…scary.

And yet…it can be fun. It can be freeing. I do enjoy the sense of “losing control”. However, the problem that I do have is of not knowing when to stop. 4, 5…9, 10…it all becomes the same beer. I do things I wish I hadn’t done…that’s what scares me.

Everything in moderation they say.

Tony, your words are really resonating with me. But…why is that “feral kid” so frightening? Why, after a few drinks, does he make me laugh, and play…but after too many, he punishes me. As if he’s saying “How dare you for locking me up!”

He may be good hearted, but anyone would be driven mad being locked in a cage for so long.

Something just occured to me. I’ve been reading the Fifth World stuff. One of the mechanics is of maintaining important relationships. Constantly repairing things, giving back what you’ve taken. You can use all your beads in one moment of glory, but you must face the consequences.

Is drinking a form of burning your reserves? Can you bring balance to the spirits that you upset when you are in this altered state?

Am I being naive in using the words spirits, demons, etc?

I’m only trying to find a common language that you guys are familiar with.

food-medicine-poison. that’s the simple answer to your question. the more complicated answers will onyl come form asking yourself the complicated questions.

I whole heartedly encourage everyone to see things the way they choose to see them. My experience is that ‘magic’ is more fullfilling than ‘reality’. Both models are wrong, the more limited ones are less useful.

‘feral’ Jordan is scary because you don’t know him, he doesn’t know his self. you have been taught for years to sit still, shut up, and train yourself against many incursions of your will on the ‘peace’ (the violent, violent 'peace) of society. Only you can untrain him, and then re-teach him, but that can’t be done in understimulating settings. New friends would be a good direction, starting a camping, self-exploration part to yourlife is a good direction, but it’s your choice, you will learn for yourself what works, and what doesn’t work.

Drinking isn’t burning anything. It a blur. It brings you out of regulated consciousness into a less-regulated forms of consciousness. this is the realm of 2-4 drinks. depending onwha toyu drink, and who you are physically, learn a limit where it’s too blurry, and save those experiences for rarity, rather than recreation. I have a mantra, take moderation in moderation. You can’t explore your edges if you always remain in the center.

Take care of yourself, and use your own language, this is a conversation for exploration of new territory, not common ground.

I say, not food nor medicine. I say Poison.

I agree with you HeyVictor. I have never seen alcohol improve anyones life, only make things worse.

Yeah, a fermented herb in the south american jungle could be a medicine that won’t even give you a buzz. Distilled alcohol is poison to me. I’m with you jordan.

It is not a choice. People who don’t recognize an “alcohol problem” in themselves feel differently about this than people who do. I recognize that once I have that first drink, I cannot stop. That is why I do not drink at all. I’ve woken up with diseases, tattoos, hearing lost, bruises, cuts and pissed on a number of peoples floors.

For people who “can” say no to another drink, they don’t understand the people who “cannot” say no. That is why they call alcoholism a disease. You do not have a choice. Some people can’t quit drinking from night to night. Others like me can quit altogether, but can’t quit once I have one drink. It’s like playing a game of russian roulette. I don’t know what I’ll wake up to, or if I’ll wake up at all. It’s not pretty, and it’s not my choice; It’s a physiological reaction to the drink. It goes beyond your “rational” “decision-making” mind.

There is no such thing as moderation for people like us. It’s all or nothing. It’s not rational, it’s physiological.

This was my wake up call:

[quote=“Urban Scout, post:8, topic:509”]I say, not food nor medicine. I say Poison.

I agree with you HeyVictor. I have never seen alcohol improve anyones life, only make things worse.

Yeah, a fermented herb in the south american jungle could be a medicine that won’t even give you a buzz. Distilled alcohol is poison to me. I’m with you jordan.

It is not a choice. People who don’t recognize an “alcohol problem” in themselves feel differently about this than people who do. I recognize that once I have that first drink, I cannot stop. That is why I do not drink at all. I’ve woken up with diseases, tattoos, hearing lost, bruises, cuts and pissed on a number of peoples floors.

For people who “can” say no to another drink, they don’t understand the people who “cannot” say no. That is why they call alcoholism a disease. You do not have a choice. Some people can’t quit drinking from night to night. Others like me can quit altogether, but can’t quit once I have one drink. It’s like playing a game of russian roulette. I don’t know what I’ll wake up to, or if I’ll wake up at all. It’s not pretty, and it’s not my choice; It’s a physiological reaction to the drink. It goes beyond your “rational” “decision-making” mind.

There is no such thing as moderation for people like us. It’s all or nothing. It’s not rational, it’s physiological.

This was my wake up call:
http://www.urbanscout.org/week15-high-spirits-or-hungry-ghosts/[/quote]

I had read that when you posted it, and I felt very grateful that you had the courage to put it up. It felt good to know that others exist “in this community” with the same difficulties.

Am I going to give up drinking? To be honest, I doubt it. Right now at least. There are too many easy excuses that exist, too many moments on a slippery slope and not stable ground.

But I do want to fight that demon. I want him to know that I hate him, and that he will never earn my respect, fear, whatever.

Hmm…perhaps the feral kid and the demon both exist in there, and both of them have their shackles loosened by alcohol. Perhaps they fight for control over me just as much as I fight to control the number of drinks that I have. Hmm…perhaps, if I nuture the feral kid in the sober world, he will be better prepared for that fight in the drunk world, and more likey to win.

God. I do feel weak. I’m sitting here, wanting to find a way to say I can continue to drink. Wanting it to be okay. Playing with evil can be a good thing. It can teach you a lot. But once your beads are gone, they’re gone…

I like it. There it is. Plain and simple. I like drinking.

I don’t like it. I hate it. Plain and simple. I hate what I do, and what I become.

I don’t believe in the dichotomy of mind/body, psyche/senses…but this seems like one hell of a split between two sides.

I don’t know…

I feel you man. I fucking love getting wasted. But I also love my hearing. And my body. And my friends and family.

I tried quitting many times before it finally “stuck.” I have to say, having a girlfriend who does not drink saves my ass time and again. If I didn’t have a girlfriend, I would probably get the urge to go out and find one, and the main way I have done that in the past, or at least the way I think of being social, is to go to a bar and start drinking.

It is a poison and a demon. It is a battle to get over, and you need support. Most of my friends don’t drink much. I mean, my real friends. I had lots of friends when I drank a lot. I don’t seem to see them around much anymore… (to echo HeyVictors thoughts)

Though we live in a culture of drinking (hell, Portland has more brew-pubs and strip clubs per capita than any US city), we can create our own micro-cultures of non-drinkers. Just look at the Straight Edge subculture. They have their own issues, but you know what I’m laying down?

I wouldn’t beat yourself up over it, just stay aware of it. Just writing this makes me want to get drunk. It’s hard.

You know there is a great book that helped my friend quit drinking called, “The Easy Way to Stop Drinking” (I guess it swept Europe by storm). But anyway, his solution that works is to never, ever drink again. Haha. Sorry to ruin for you. But his methods have worked for many many people. I tried to read the book, but I my wounds were enough to know to never do it again. Plus, I also had quit smoking many times and know that once you have an addiction, you can never smoke again if you quit. At some point you think you can have just one, but that one ALWAYS leads to more. That’s the trick of addiction. And the trick to breaking free is to never, ever under any circumstances drink or smoke or gamble or whatever, ever again.

I was sober for 10 years. I decided I had it all under control and thought Hell, I can have a social drink now. I’m cool.
Took me two years to realize it had control of me again, it’ll be 8 years in Feb. since I had a drink this time. Never again? one day at a time is more like it, but never would be best.

Thanks for your posts US.

Sorry Tony I just can’t buy this idea of the therapuetic use of alcohol to release the feral person locked inside of us. If that’s what your saying.

As you might be able to tell from some of my other posts I’m more into fasting than indulging.

If you want to get in touch with yourself and allign yourself with the natural world, don’t go camping and drink. Go out in the woods with a clear intention and fast.

In a nutshell, there’s no place for alcohol in my path.

Check out a video called “I Am Alcohol” by Don Burnstick

Addiction still mystifies me. I have put an excess of heart and energy and years into trying to make sense of it. Sometimes I think I understand small parts of the whole phenomenon, but I really don’t.

That said, I belong to the camp who can take alcohol or it or leave it. I see how, compared with other mind-altering drugs, it has empathic qualities–you can put a positive or negative spin on that depending on your experiences. I can have fun with it, I have definitely abused it, and I agree that distilled liquor (industrial product of civilization) poisons us. By contrast, the yarrow beer I made came in at a whopping 2% alcohol–I measured. I can’t ignore the value of using fermentation to spread the usefulness of plants beyond their growing season. I see, too, how it can contribute in a positive way to celebration (which implies its use as the exception, not the rule), and also to “get in another mindset” for a while.

Results depend a lot on context, including you, your community, rituals, relationships, the particular form of alcohol, its strength, meaning, etc. Buhner’s book on Sacred and Herbal Healing Beers broadens the spectrum of alcohol experiences beyond our culture. Very worthwhile reading, IMHO, if you are grappling with these questions.

Yeah I’m not selling anything, so you are free to take it or leave it. I was really responding to Jordan in the most compassionate sense I could. The idea of moving addictions, problems, or anything else that causes ‘bad’ vibes from inside to oustide, for me and my compatriots, has come form the many times I have done this for my own friends, and the positive outcomes of this ‘scene change’ has helped many friends bring themselves back down to earth.

For example, I know a lot of young kids that are addicted to getting high. Many of them have been able to walk completely away from getting high everyday, just by learning about who they are as we hike in the moonlight up on their alteration of choice.

The alteration changes what it is when you are walking in the ‘shades of death’, as opposed to bumping and grinding at a club, or at a house party.

What changes is the stimulation of the outdoors, especially at night, brings your senses to a new awareness.

My Elder KatieTwoKnives taught me about nightwalking, about turning off the flashlight, and getting in tune with my senses. I can be high, I can be tripping, I can be drunk as a skunk, but when I’m night walking, those affects take a backseat, and as it has been done for my friends, it has been done for me.

It’s hard to sit here and type what that is, but it has shown me jsut how little the ego is inside of our heads. When you bring to the front all of your consciousnesses, like the activity of nightwalking does, the part of you that is ‘fucked up’ get diminutized, less important, less in control.

Sitting around a campfire can be just sititng around the TV, so, maybe ‘just drinking and camping’ doesn’t give you maximum impact, but as a guide who takes people out camping for their first time on a regular basis, The change I see, is amazing.

I know what ya’ll mean about ‘drunk world’. Sure, the bar people are my friends when I’m there, but they aren’t calling me the next day for lunch. I get that, and it is what it is, and they are who they are, and I dont’ feel hurt by that at all in the slightest. I ahve friends all across the globe, and all across the spectrum, so when the drunks stay to the drunks, the pillheads to the pillheads, and the potheads to the potheads, that can’t be injurous to anyone but them, they who identify with the drug.

I’ll be honest, having had a father who has a serious drinking (but really, emotional) problem, I was afraid I wasn’t going to be able to handle life. I guess I’m glad I became a man before I touched any substance. The sumemr I went through my ritual, afterwards, I tried acid, adn pot, and drank a little. I always felt good. I always accentuated the positive effects.

Sure, I have gotten sick, but when I think about how fun that was before, the sickness was only like a pinprick.

But then, two weeks ago, something bad happened to me. A friend of mine, a bit older, someone else who ‘shamanizes’, got pretty drunk, and was having inappropriate feelings towards a poledancer at a party. Sure, she was absorbing every little bit of alpha male attention she could get, but she wasn’t about to fuck ups on the spot. Well, after a little bit of talking to my friend, I was able to bring his behavior back into check, but at then, he said he felt like I ‘deflated’ him a bit, and wanted to go home, so at 6 a.m. and drunk as hell, we left the hotties on the pole and in the hot tub and made the march home.

We got to his house, ate some cheese and crackers, and passed. out. I drank waaay more pumpkin wine than he did. I woke up at noon. When I did, I saw that sometime in the middle of the night, he pissed all over a chair and his coffee table. I woke him up and I was like, WTF, dude? He rembered doing it, and then remember how his dad usedd to do it all the time, and himself, had never done it before that day.

So he and I had a talk, and he was surprised by all these feelings our crazy night had made him feel. He and I have had a lot of deep conversations like this since I left town, and I think we’re better for it.

I guess the point of me telling this is that our lives are a journey, and none of us ever arrive anywhere, be it ‘sober’ (high on life, sugar, accomplishment, anyone? everyone?), be it ‘clean’, be it ‘drunk’, we’re all all over the map, and some day, maybe even I might wake up and piss my coffee table and recliner.

I say, take the journey in stride, do everything whole heartedly, and take care of yourself. Don’t avoid those scary things you find in your altered and sub and meta consciousnesses, face them, find them, get to know them.

MY question is, do you ever get to know and deal with yourself when you run away form yourself, or if you face that self?

Maybe some drunks are running away from their sober self? I know I’m better for not doing a different drug everyday so that I’m high all week and all month. But I don’t seem to know addicition, either.

Be drunk. Try to find sober, and deal with your behavior. Don’t blame the booze, blame yourself. Ask why the booze teams up with yourself to give you permission to do this things your civility holds you back from. Maybe there is a good reason why you are pissing your bed, or your couch, maybe it’s not bad at all, maybe it’s a type of self-communication.

If I’ve learned anything here – what ‘is’ isn’t ‘it’. All things exist at the same time, in the same place, with different names, and different shadows.

Thank you guys very much. You have given me a lot of food (or poison ;)) for thought. I’ll keep you informed of my journey, but for now I have to go on and see how things come.

I think alcohol is much like the One Ring. It works as a very powerful form of sorcery, but like the Ring, it has an agenda of its own. One must be powerfully skilled to wield it, and you may find it useful in certain conditions, but even then it still may lead you to do evil.

I think I’ll learn from Frodo: Bear it like the burden it is. Use it when you believe you need it, but be prepared for the possibility of getting burned. However, your destination has always ultimately been Mount Doom.

I’ve been a teetotaler for most of my life. My alchohol tolerance is practically nothing. I’ve seen my stepfather drink himself stupid for so long that even though he hasn’t drank in a year he’s still not sober. I’ve had girls, close friends, act on mutual attraction only to forget we ever hooked up the next day. I’ve seen what alchohol can do.

I drink now.

Why? well, it’s more of a “why not” really. I like how some types of alchohol taste. The key here is I’ve never gotten drunk. Not once. I rarely have more than 1 drink, and if I drink more, I can recognize when I’m starting to get tipsy and I cut myself off. And if I was told I could never drink alchohol again, I wouldn’t really miss it. Letting myself see alchohol on my terms this way denies it having any power over me.

But if you’ve ever had any problem with alchohol, then you stay away. I’ve got kinda a half assed metahor. You can flirt with the crazy hot chick (or guy), but you don’t go home with them. And once you’ve had that abusive relationship, you have to stay away from the crazy ex or it never gets better.

I don’t think that kind of self destructive behavior is Civ based, though. Sure, a lot of people turn to alchohol because of the stress of Civ. For many, it’s the stress releif of being to drunk to care that makes being drunk so psychologically addictive. But stress isn’t a civ thing, there’s always some stress in life, and some people who can’t deal. There’s always someone who’s irresponsible too. I’m sure the drunkard becomes a problem in any group of people who discover a way to get drunk.

My closest brothers and their families have never touched a drink in their lives. A few of the Bedouin I know have tried it once or twice and then never got around to any more drinking. It’s not socially accepted and drinking is prohibited in Islam, and I completely agree with this and wouldn’t have it any other way personally.

Most have never indulged. I can’t say the same but I never drink with them, nor do I feel any desire to. I think part of the reason we get along so well is because we don’t drink, not for social occasions, not for weddings, not for anything. We have all the social connection and happiness we need from each other and the desert. We don’t need liquor to get along with one another.

I think that is a big reason why I don’t connect with many Europeans/Americans/Canadians. Many of them need to drink in order to have a good time, European culture has a long history of social drinking and it’s not only accepted, it’s expected when people get together.

I remember once in my camp me and Salem were by the fire with these tourists and they pulled out a bottle and offered us a drink. We both declined and I knew our minds were thinking the exact same thoughts.

We talked long into the night while the intoxicated tourists went to sleep and we both agreed that we were perfectly content spending the night out in the beautiful desert by the fire and with our meal of zaerb and tea, and what more could you want? Everything was here, we agreed. Why would tourists feel the need to drink on such a beautiful night? I am glad many of the Bedouin feel this way and are appalled by the drinking they witness, rather than trying it for themselves and accepting the invitation to drink.

It would be an interesting thing indeed, if someone offered you a drink and you offered them sobriety.

“would you like a drink?”

“No thanks. Would you like to not drink with me?”

I wonder what they would say… :stuck_out_tongue:

AS ive posted somewhere else on this forum i also, am a recovering alcoholic. I do not think alcohol is in itself a bad thing, i know people who enjoy it in well dosed ways. Alas i am not one of them. Like US i didnt drink everyday, i could go for days without drinking and not feel bad. My problem too lies in the "drink one - drink all " category. Gambling with my life seems a fit description. I choose to stop. I did not feel obliged to stop, people didnt ask me to stop, if they woud have i probably wouldnt listen anyway. I saw hurt in their eyes. My drinking problems does not make the life of the people around me any nicer. It makes it more painful and they too might reflect my pain in different ways.

At first my friends reacted in a very macho-scripted manner. I think they felt as if i attacked them somehow by stopping drinking. But now they are used to it and mostly ignore it. I know they appreciate it though, i jsut notice these things in my communication with them which is more relaxed and carefree. They appreciate what ive done but i somehow do not allow themselves to show this too much especially when in groups. This to me shows that even my anarchist or “free-thinker” friends struggle with behavioural patterns (spelled correct).

well. take care.

i have found when we release ourselves from our own addictions, traps of unmet needs and disempowerment, we grow wilder

wow, just reading that was incredible. it must have felt magnificent to have felt that with someone else.