9/11 Conspiracy?

Visions of the Rewilding Renaissance
#1

Now, before you vote, please note that answering “yes” means that the U.S. Government was either actively involved (they planted bombs, demolished them, and sent a missile in the Pentagon, and so on (i.e., they made it happen)) or that the U.S. Government knew what was going to happen, but did not plant any bombs or demolish anything (i.e., they let it happen).

Voting “no” means that you believe that Al Qaida hijacked the planes and crashed them into the buildings, just like the Official Story describes it, as well as eventual mistakes, miscalculations, and so on.

Voting “undecided” is, well, you don’t know or both stories seems (nearly) equally “good” and so on.

#2

Anyone cares to elaborate on their choices? :slight_smile:

#3

I said undecided.

I believe that IF 9/11 was an inside job, it was something the U.S. gov let happen rather than made happen. That’s IF…

(I’ve seen a couple of those videos where they claim there are detonators in the sides of the buildings as they fall, but I am not convinced.)

#4

I still don’t know for sure, but it’s worth keeping in mind the United States government has a long history of false-flag operations. If this were genuine, it would be an exception, rather than the norm.

#5

I don’t think it matters either way, however I voted no for a couple of reasons.

First, it’s a framing question. By framing 9/11 the way 9/11 truthers tend to do, they ignore hundreds of years of colonialism and the anger that it has caused. The fact is, those who live the brutality that the first world has foisted upon them have a darn good motive for killing those who have caused that brutality. They honestly couldn’t have picked a better target. As strategy goes, they picked a perfect target and executed relatively flawlessly killing a huge percentage of rich people and fascist thugs.

If you look at who was killed, the majority were either those who are salary wise in the top 5% in this country or were the brute squad for those 5%. The violence of the state is NEVER pointed to those in that group So, framing the whole issue as a coverup tends to downplay the anger of others towards the first-world. Note: The “oh the poor janitor” argument doesn’t hold water with me. If the US military had bombed Hitler’s Eagles Nest hideout, I doubt many people would have cried about his janitors and cooks.

Second, the argument that an attack was needed to (pick one: Invade Iraq, justify repression) doesn’t hold water. We had been bombing Iraq continiously for years. An invasion would have been fully supported. Passing laws to curtail civil liberties in the name of “freedom” had been occuring for years.

Now, that’s not to say they didn’t take advantage of the opportunity. I’m certain they did.

Third, 9/11 is why I left the east coast. I was in NYC that morning (luckily I had left it around 7am) and have friends who witnessed both the WTC attacks and the Pentagon. Controlled demolition? Missle? Space Aliens? Nope. Sorry. I believe my friends when they say “BIG FUCKING PLANE!:”

Lastly, a few thoughts. I take Ward Churchill’s position on this. This was caused by the US deciding for hundreds of years to kill anyone whose shit we want to steal and the chickens finally came home to roost. Now, I think it’s likely that some of the spooks knew these folks were in country/allowed them into the country, so they could either “catch them in the act” or to keep a better eye on them and then crapped their draws when this all came down.

And really… does any of this matter one bit? No. The crimes of the state are well documented. Personally, I think the whole conspiracy beeswax is a government creation to keep the focus on a few dead rich firstworlders than the millions of dead poor brown people.

#6

I hope to all the gods that the “official story” is right and that a dedicated group of low tech insurgents pulled this off on their own. Because that’s inspiring. It shows that they can never lock it all down, never make the castle impervious to the peasants. I certainly don’t agree with the motivations of the hijackers, but I applaud their methods. Damn good show, chaps.

The alternative presumes that nothing ever happens without the approval of the men upstairs. At it’s best it’s merely people looking to blame one more thing on Bush (as if the things he actually does aren’t enough). At worst it’s blatantly racist. I’m sure many of the 9/11 truthers would be more comfortable with the idea that their own government means to kill them than with the idea that people in other countries can somehow retaliate against us. Who would you rather be killed by?

One story says the government is hostile and infallible. The other paints a picture of an unstable system easily blindsided. Which fits what we know as rewilders better?

#7

I agree with Andrew Jensen.

My own answer to the poll is “no”.

The reason is that Al Qaida has been doing terrorist attacks for over a decade in all parts of the world. That shows that they are not located in one place or country.

Then there are holes in the 9/11 conspiracy theory. Not only holes, right out misleadings. For example, Loose Change took the firemen’s quotes out of context to fit their theory (that is, bombs in the buildings). That is a strange thing to do for a group that claims to be searching for the truth.

After all, the U.S. Government is still made of humans, doing human mistakes, human errors, misjudgements and all. They may have all the newest weapons, they may have an advanced military, but they are still humans.

#8

I voted no. Not an inside job.

When I was 18 I joind the army to pay for college (and because I was fairly right-wing back then) and wound up getting recruited for military intelligence. Wound up working for 7 years in electronic warfare, signals intel with top secret clearance. Four of those years, I was doing that job for the special forces (green berets). By the time I got out in 1996 I had learned enough about U.S. imperialism (getting a degree in international studies) that I had become a conscientious objector (not a pacifist, just an objector…I tend to side both Edward Abbey and Ward Churchill on the subject of pacifism).

Being the big geek that I am, I remember going to a comic shop in the mid 90’s and looking at a “black ops” role-playing game (I think it was a GURPS add-on) that had a bunch of the actual top-secret codewords I had learned in MI school in the game. U.S. govt. top secret code words in a comic shop in Denver…yeah. The U.S. govt. can’t even get away with bombing sheep in the Iraqi desert without solid information on their activities getting out to someone. I doubt they could take out the WTC without it being completely obvious to anyone who actually took the time and effort to look into the matter.

If you look at the history of U.S. intervention in the third world and Arab world, it makes perfect sense that the WTC buildings would be attacked. Based on what I know about the world scene, I had been expecting something like this for nearly a decade before it happened. I actually thought it more likely that DC would go up in a blast from a post-soviet and/or homemade terrorist nuke (still a possibility, btw), but planes into the WTC made perfect sense as well.

My experience is that the age-old joke is right, “military intelligence” is basically a contradiction in terms. “Government intelligence” would be a similar contradiction. It’s much easier for me to believe that the powers that be are human (and therefore incompetent when it comes to playing god) than to believe that the U.S. govt. is so incredibly omnipotent as to pull off 9/11 as an inside job.

One story says the government is hostile and infallible. The other paints a picture of an unstable system easily blindsided. Which fits what we know as rewilders better?

I agree, especially since most people want to believe they are basically good and doing good. I can visualize angry Saudis thinking they are doing good by knocking down the WTC, I can’t see even the most calloused special agents for the U.S. govt. feeling that way. I think if this were an inside job, you’d have remorseful ex-agents coming out of the woodwork in droves (or “being dissapeared” in droves and then their assasins coming out of the woodwork) to talk about it.

#9

I’ve gotten so used to the overlap of anti-civ’s buying into the so-called “9/11 Truth Movement,” that this thread is incredibly refreshing. There’s little I can say that hasn’t already been said. It’s hardly a matter of whether it’s something the U.S. gov’t would do (of course they would), but rather, did they? It’s not as if there aren’t many groups like al-Qa’ida that were dying to do something like this for decades, and it’s not as if the gov’t is somehow the only group capable of this. I see the conspiracy theory as ultimately a desperation to believe that hierarchy remains effective, even incredibly effective, because the “official story” means that hierarchy is useless. It can’t protect you, and in fact, all of our complexity means all it takes is 19 guys with box cutters to kill thousands of people, that’s how fragile and precarious all of our complexity makes us. The conspiracy theory means all is well, complexity protects us, and we’ll be all right. A lot of people need to believe that, no matter what the facts may be.

But thank you all, you have no idea how reassuring the reasonability of this thread is.

#10
The conspiracy theory means all is well, complexity protects us, and we'll be all right. A lot of people need to believe that, no matter what the facts may be.

I think the, or any, conspiracy theory works pretty much as a faith.

I mean, a conspiracy theory can not have any direct proof. Is it possible that there were bombs in the buildings? I certainly think so. But the evidence points in the other direction. But it is that possibility, that small inch, that keeps the whole thing going.

What makes the conspiracy theory more like a faith, is that such a theory places blame on something, or someone. I think it becomes a sort of reason as to why there is so much evil in the world, even though 80% of all humans today have some sort of faith. We’ve experience nazism and communism, so that must mean that capitalism is the only thing left.

And so, something must be wrong - but not with capitalism itself - someone is doing all the bad things to us.

So these theories will always be around. There will never be any answers to their questions, because they expect only confirmation by the accused, confirmation of the conspiracy theory.