I see day to day that as a species we must change our course.I don’t think it is effective to go about this change in a state of fear or panic.I have no more love for the civ than anyone else on this forum,although I was born in it and it is very hard if not impossible to change patterns in a human mind quickly.The doom and gloom scenarios I mentioned before when presented to an emotional human mind as the way it is seems to stifle Rewilding.If we are to make a new culture we must tell each other myths that support that change instead of these same old myths that got us here in the first place.I would like to say that I to realize that here in the USA and especially in my Portland Oregon bubble these things are not so obvious.I have heard of the atrocities that happen in other parts of the world where these scenarios are played out daily.I guess I just question the effectiveness of these stories and how they relate to rewilding for me.My views are definitely colored by the fact that I have a small child and to think of him going through this shit ,well just sucks.
Green you have stated a very good point that many people, rewilders included have been born into this techno mess of a civilization therefore it is difficult to grasp that it is going to come crashing down sooner or later.
If it happens slowly then we may stand a chance of returning at a pace that allows us not to kill ourselves in the process.
Unfortunately history does not show that this is going to happen, and the current world situation shows that violence will be the norm for many years afterwards.
As an individual that has seen first hand what the face of collapse looks like, I have made my preperations accordingly set up my contingency plans, devised ways of doing without, and still understand that despite my best efforts I may still wind up among the dead.
It is so scary for my family that they are split in parts of “It will never happen”, “If it happens I don’t want to live through it”, and “how do we survive and live after it happens”. Thankfully my wife and adult daughter are like myself and we wish to live and survive. My adult sons are both of the belief that it is not going to happen or if it does it will not be in their lifetime. The rest of my family follows this basic guideline.
Rewilding offers a chance of survival and rebirth that needs to be addressed in every way possible, from blogs like this to actual camps that teach those willing to learn the basics to more advanced long term projects.
I hope we have the time to make it happen but I have my doubts.
pagan48 could you tell a story about your first hand experience of what collapse looks like?Also where does history show sudden crash of civ?Violence seems to have been with us a long time if not always as opposed to being a modern invention.I think our species has just become more effective at violence.
Civilization is the result of, and necessarily results in, violence. We will simply have a change in its form.
Green the first hand experience concerns the area once called Yugoslavia.
The Island of Grenada. The Various central African Countries.
I will use the Yugoslavia fall for this point, During the initial stages anyone that had an ethnic background that was not in line with the majority had ALL property seized, and their bank accounts frozen. These minorities were abused both verbally and physiclly until such a time that they fled to another part of the area or turned to some militant group for support. The political situation disolved into might makes right, with the strongest military group taking control and using genocide to maintain control. This continues even today on a lesser scale out of the international eyes in areas that are less accesable.
It goes that every form of human degradation and misery occured under the guise of ethnic reform/relocation. Rape,murder,torture and maiming were all condoned by the group(s) in power. Once thriving towns disappeared being completely destroyed, cities were bombed on a regular basis with artillery sometimes for weeks at a time. Small villages were rounded up and everyone in the village was killed, often for no reason other than being where they were.
Although history shows that most civilizations that fell did so due to outside conquest, it happened after the society became so corrupted internally that it was no longer able to defend itself. With very few exceptions outside conquest has been the downfall of civilizations throughout history.
The exceptions occured due to the drastic natural changes that occured. From rivers drying up or changing their courses, earthquakes or volcanes that destroyed the larger centers and in one case for reasons unknown.
The cliff dwellers of the south western USA disappeared almost overnight for reasons unknown.
The current world situation is such that the socia-economic intermingling has created a very unstable but workable civilization. This world wide civilization is very dependent on the agriculture of the USA, the petroleum of the middle east and the cheap labor of the third world countries. A prolonged disruption of any one part of this triangle will result in the collapse of the world civilization. Localized economies that are less dependent on modern technology will fair better than those that require massive amounts of technology to operate.
Sorry this ran so long but hope it helped.
Thank you for the info pagan48.Could you tell us what sort of preparations you are making to get through a collapse.
Sorry it has taken so long to get back to this thread but life got rather hectic recently and is just starting to return to its former normalcy.
My preperations include but are not limited to stockpiles of goods hidden in various locations throughout the northwestern USA, maps that contain detailed information regarding the locations of known military installations that are currently operational and those that are closed but still under military control, high detail maps that show topographical features and where available satelite relief maps of most of the USA.
The stockpiles themselves consist of high energy and concentrated food supplies (MRE’s for the most part) for 10 people for 30 days, non-perishable or long shelf life canned goods for 10 people for 15 days, 300 gallons of steralized and sealed water in 6 50 gallon drums, 5 rifles of various calibers and 500 rounds of ammunition for each sealed in a water proof container and then covered with 2 inches of concrete, some durable clothing similar to old style military fatigues, and a complete field surgery kit.
To date I have placed 8 of these caches in locations from 5 to 250 miles from my current home. My daughter and her husband have placed 3 similar caches near their home in NY state, my cousin in Az has done even more having placed 12 such caches, and my older sister and her husband have 5 located near their Tn home. I am aware of several other groups and individuals that have done the same thing.
Also included in my caches are 2 recurve bows with a half dozen extra strings, 50 basic arrows and 10 hunting arrows, 4 dozen extra arrow heads and the same number of nylon flights/feathers. Basic fishing equipment but no rods or reels. 2 of the more secure sites also have large treated tarps, sleeping bags, and other assorted “comfort” products.
Each location also has the means to siphon gas, purify water, and some tools for basic repairs and/or construction.
Yes it has taken time and a good deal of money to put all this together but I consider it money well spent when things eventually fall apart.
I randomly check each site 4 times a year and update/replace/add to each site as needed.
Call me a survival nut if you will but you did ask.
In addition to your impressive caches, do you have any particular social networks set up? Do you have a group that would get together as a support network (a tribe)?
What will you do when the caches run out?
dude, first off, you’re crazy
second, that is in no way, sustainable
third, it’s just easier to learn how to live off the land
Hello all, Im back for a little bit.
pagan48, I don’t think you’re crazy! In fact, I think you’re smarter than the vast vast majority of N Americans who not only are not preparing for the inevitability of civilization’s collapse, but who are not even aware of it and believe that our current artificial, unsustainable lifestyle will just continue on forever.
Yeah, I agree that the materials in your caches aren’t “sustainable”, but I’m guessing that isn’t the point. The point is to help your people survive in the immediate aftermath of when everything falls apart - which will no doubt be the most difficult time for everyone.
But I think the key is what jason said earlier:
Remember, every collapse in history happened precisely because most people on earth benefitted from it. The romanticized view of collapse-as-catastrophe comes from the elites, who wailed over the fact that they no longer had anyone to push around and had to support themselves for once.
I think the reason why so many people we know are afraid of civilization collapsing (and/or against trying to bring down civilization) is because they are relatively high up in the hierarchy and therefore benefit far more from civilization than those lower down on the hierarchy. The way one lives naturally will color one’s attitudes about the society one lives in (creating unique perspectives). It is hard for those of us in this position to truly understand the massive damage that civilization does every day to other humans and ESPECIALLY non-humans.
And because the destruction & pollution of the natural world doesn’t (for the most part) exist in our backyards, but in the backyards of those farther down the hierarchy, it makes sense that we would be less aware of it (or even if we are aware of it, it remains an abstract knowledge rather than an experience of reality).
So in any discussion of the effects of collapse, quick or slow, I think we NEED to weigh the effects on ourselves and our communities, with the effects on people elsewhere in the globe, AND the effects of non-humans everywhere. Oh, and the effects on future generations.
This is how I see it - the longer civilization goes on, the more the corporate and military juggernaut will strip-mine and pollute more places (killing people and non-humans immediately, but also making these places unlivable for future generations), the more wars will be fought in the name of controlling the ever-diminishing resources (as we see in the middle east, with posturing involving Russia, NATO, and the threat of precision-nuclear strikes), the more indigenous cultures will be threatened and destroyed, and the more climate change will occur (the longer we emit fossil fuels, the worse it will be - duh ;)).
So I firmly believe that the sooner civilization comes down, the better off EVERYONE will be (humans, non-humans, and future generations alike), with the exception of those humans who are currently benefiting the most from this system. Although one could argue that (given the increasing rates of depression, addiction, etc even among the privileged elite, and considering that pollution is affecting them and their children as well as everyone else) that those of us who are currently doing ok will actually be better off without civilization as well. Most of us just won’t realize it, because the vast majority have been inculcated to identify with this system, and cannot imagine any other way to live.
I feel you, man. I guess most of us are in that situation where part of our family (blood or otherwise) ‘gets it’, and part doesn’t. Still, tho’, I have to say, I’ve been increasingly surprised at how many (good) conversations I’ve had with extended family this year about collapse and/or rewilding.
As an aside about “quick” collapse vs “slow” collapse, I agree w/ Jason that we’re looking at a “quick” collapse on the order of about a decade (-ish). At least in terms of “core civilization”. I don’t think that has any direct bearing on the thread, but… I never know what kind of timeline someone as in mind anymore when they say “quick collapse” or “slow collapse” :o
I agree, we should look at how we define “quick?†Five years? Ten? Overnight?
Based on the different needs and actions caused by different scenarios this could be an important distinction.
I think it would be best to have multiple courses of action (COA) depending on whether it was a “quick collapse†or a “gradual oneâ€Â.
A way to categorize a quick collapse scenario would be one that happens “overnight†or sneaks up on people, wake up and the stores aren’t open, power is cut off, the Government shuts down, etc.
In this scenario one should have “no-coms†link up sights (cell phone don’t work) outside the city (and in) for all members of your tribe/family, pre planned caches (like Pagan48) and plans that cover both the escape of being “caught in the collapse†and methods in order to defend or hide from the period of violence that everyone agrees will likely immediately follow COA#1.
This is a classic “survivalist†type of situation and there is a lot to be learned both skills and tactics wise that will prepare us if this does happen.
COA #2 is more probable and the gradual collapse has a different set of things to focus on, these are many of the same skills and preparations that will be needed after the violence period ending COA #1.
These are commonly called primitive but I prefer “natural†skills, these include (but are not limited to) hunting, gathering, natural medicine, black-smiting, understanding tribal cultures/language in order to avoid the same mistakes, land stewardship, etc.
Preparing for COA #2 is more focused on the “software†and not as much on the “hardwareâ€Â. This is the long road and may stretch out over many years/decades. Listing the skills and knowledge you (or your tribe/group) need to focus on prioritizes your growth. Let’s say I know I’m pretty good at the hunting (have built my own bow by hand, make my own arrows, have actually used them in hunting, can track, stalk, clean and brain tan my own hides, etc) but I’m weak on my natural medicine, I need to either link up with someone who is strong in that area and recruit them into my group or take the steps to learn myself. etc, etc…
COA#2 is both good and bad in that in all likelihood it may mean ten to twenty years until collapse and means more and more of the natural environment destroyed by civilization. However, on the good side slow collapse does allow for more time to prepare and perhaps more importantly retrain our minds and educate or families (blood or otherwise) on the sickness of civilization. To ease our addiction on the vices of civilization, to re/unlearn the lies, to become one with natural law and well……rewild.
As far as “What if there is no collapse?†I think the 30 thesis and a closer look at our economics pretty much settle the fact that there will be one… the question then becomes “when†not “ifâ€Â. By rewilding and preparing for COA#2 you are making the world a better place and helping those around you open their eyes to reality and what really matters. Even if it never did happen is that a bad life? It is much harder to live in a cage once you realize it’s there but once your eyes are opened they can’t be closed again.
In the long run I guess it would be better for someone to prepare for both COAs as nothing ends without death throes civilization included. Of course this may be the thoughts or views of a civilization addict trying to think clearly through a drug addled mind.
Duc
I’ve come to think of collapse in terms of a period in time rather than an event. I think when people say collapse they tend to question when it will happen. From my perspective, collapse is an ongoing process that we can see already unfolding, albeit not on the scale of a hollywood action flick. The recent economic events mark the first tolls of economic contraction that will continue for quite some time.
I don’t think this rules out the notion that there may come days or weeks or years of severe crisis (like not just abstract crises of credit) where food and energy shortages occur. But I don’t anticipate that these things will happen out of the blue, across-the-board everywhere. A few food shortages here and there (note, this has already occurred outside the industrialized world), a few gas shortages here and there (much like we’ve seen in the southeast after Ike), all coalescing to a point where the daily expectation of stocked shelves changes. People will get used to empty shelves, reduced hours for stores, and will get used to waiting for the monthly supply trucks and the rationed food.
This particular vision of how things might occur won’t likely line up with real events, but for me the point is that we won’t be able to mark collapse in terms of a single day or week but only in retrospect – “Just five years ago, store shelves were always full.” “I remember a time when you could always get gas!” eventually leading to “I remember a day when we had things called ‘stores’ where you used plastic cards to get food”…
In other words, here we stand, with civilization slowly collapsing around us. Welcome to the end…
I hope this is how it plays out. It seems a lot easier to create alternatives when there’s not a rush on. Now if the supervolcano at Yellowstone doesn’t blow a gasket…
I would categorize this as COA#2 or a “Gradual†collapse, however in my opinion, it may be wise to plan for COA#1 just in case. I find it amazing how fast things can go south, even faster in an industrialized civ dependant nation.
As either Willem or Urban Scout posted in another thread those higher towards the top of the pyramid will suffer the most the quickest, life in a third world (I don’t like that term) let’s say “less-industrialized†nation, will be much easier to return to a non-industrialized state.
I know when my father was living in the woods for years not only would a collapse not have effected his life, he probably wouldn’t have even known about it for a while until the refugees of civilization came looking for food.
I’m not saying or hoping it will go either way, just than it “can†therefore it may be advantageous to be prepared, and it can happen faster than our civilized minds wants to admit.
For example: We had some bad wind storms last winter in the north west (or maybe the winter before, I tend to not differentiate too much… past is past) anyways, the power in the South Sound area went out, for maybe only two or three days. Of course power out means most stores closed and electricity off meant no heat in the homes.
You could imagine there was almost a panic in suburbia. I had to give several of my neighbors not only firewood (many hadn’t used their fireplaces in years for anything more than a candle holder) but food as well. How many days until they were stealing instead of asking? breaking into stores?
How long would power have to stay out to have Marshal law? total breakdown? a week? two? Although it may seem crazy that civilization could breakdown so quickly, survival instincts and fear kick in and for those who don’t know how to live with less/naturally violence seems to always be the first answer (ingrained by the violence of our culture?)
COA#1 planning doesn’t have to be that difficult: have a link up plan in case communications systems go down, have some means of self defense until you can get out of the cities (where the violence will likely happen) have a pre-planned area to go to (also used as an alternate link up site for those who didn’t make it to the primary in a set time). Worse case I go “camping†for a few days and listen to the Dynamo hand cranked am/fm radio and hear everything in the city returned back to “normal†I can call it a great drill of COA #1 and return to the long gradual fall (COA#2). Best case I survived BECAUSE I was prepared to get out before it got really bad.
The hardest part about abandoning a sinking ship is in knowing when to jump off. Go too soon and a person will have to tread water longer, go too late and it may drag them down with it.
Duc