Shamanism or is it? need help

Regenerative Culture Spiritual Technology
#1

There are some question that you just don’t know how to answer sometimes. Most of the time they are things like “how do you know her?” or smthg of that sort. To me it is “what religion r u?” or “what is ur spiritual path” or smth, really.

the issue is not that i have a confusion about my beliefs and where they lie, on the contrary. I have a very nice and fully developed spirituality, I am a phil major and read a lot of religious and philosophical stuff. The issue is i am afraid to step on toes.

Let me explain. After a long search, i finally arrived at what seemed to be a spirituality that is my own (in some sense) and made sense to me. If i where to “label” my religious beliefs i would say ‘Daoist Shaman’ is the closest i can get. The Daoist part i do not have much of an issue with, since when i read daoist philosophy it was like the guy was writing was was in my head, it was scary. (Note: as a student of the ancient eastern philosophies i see religion as more of a spiritual practice of philosophical beliefs or smthg of the sort).

My issue is the shaman part. I am afraid to step on a LOT of toes here, and be misunderstood at best (i have poorly designed RPG’s to thank for that). I am an animist at heart, left to my own will i follow a daoist way of life, and i converse with spirits as a part of my daily rituals etc. I ask them for advice, help anything. My oldest and dearest friend is the wind spirit. Or one of them, i have strange feeling there is more than 1 there. And i think this plays an important part in my spirituality. Closest thing i can find is “shaman” so should i continue to use it. What should i tell people i am a “shaman” a “daoist shaman” a “pagan” i have no idea, anyone like to help?

Note: two things, i realise that a) labels are not important and b) i seem to be confusing religion, philosophy and spirituality. for (a) i say i am aware but i like to have a lable anyways. and for (b) i say, yes yes, i promise you its not a confusion, this arises from the fact that a lot of my core beliefs stem from ancient eastern tradition of philosophy. Most of whom do not differentiate between religion and philosophy. To me religion = spiritual sytem build on philosophical belief sytem and its practice. or smthg close to that.

#2

Tj-
For me philosophy is a head thing. It’s all about what you think.
When it gets into every cell of your body is when it’s Spirituality.

I don’t think we choose our Spirituality/Religion. It chooses us.

In my way of looking at it, if a person has shopped around, studied comparative religions, and picked the path that fits their lifestyle and orientation, it’s a philosophy.

My Spiritual path often requires me to do the adjusting and fitting. It is what takes me to new places and helps me grow.

Just my own trip here;
I attach a lot of baggage to the words shaman and shamanism. They really get carelessly tossed around these days. People go to these workshops and become “certified” shamans and it’s on their business cards and stuff.
My bias tells me if someone says they are a shaman they probably aren’t.
I actually know some real ones and it’s not on their business card or their resume.

#3

Wow. Heyvictor, you really speak to my own experience too, at least in so far as “your relationship choosing you”, and making you change. I like the word “animism” for this reason, because it has enough vagueness to it, and yet stays simple at the essence. Animism: an experience (not a belief) of an animate and related world. A valuation of life and the land for its own sake. A personal relationship to the world.

Shamanism/shamanry to me, seems like a toolkit, not a way of life (although it may become second nature to the shaman, I suppose). Shamans or spirit doctors move energy and consort with powers to get things done. But that, to me, doesn’t necessarily mean animism…you could have Buddhism shamans, or Christian shamans, or Moslem shamans, if they simply dealt with forces unacknowledged by the modern world. And they do. I believe they call them faith-healers and such. Animism refers to a relationship; Shamanism refers to something you do.

#4

Very true. This was one of the reasons i am VERY wary on using the word shaman or shamanism (heyvictor’s point). It really is sad though. I think the “old ways” have a LOT to teach us if we take the time.

I have the same problem with yoga, for instance. Being from india I have talked to real yogi’s and gurus about yoga. And actually gone through the vedas etc. I was raised in such a manner. But i see “yoga workshops” and i see them treat yoga as a form of aeorobics and it sort of pisses me off. So i understand what you are talking about. Yoga is part of a spritiuality, it is a practice attached to a spiritual system, much like shamanism, it is a toolkit (like willem said). You CAN be someone who practices yoga right, and still be christian. But it requires (at least in my mind) to adopt some of the believes of where it comes from. Yoga is a live spiritual practice, not some form of exercise.

One of the main reasons I am hesitant to just say i am a shaman or smthg, is due to the bagage attached to said word. I feel it is not up to me to decide a title like that. They are not titles if they are self given. But sadly, my own spiritual practices tend toward shamanic in nature. So yes i am hesitant to call myself one, but if someone asks me I say shamanic daoism anyways. Depending on the person really, but i find it suffices for most people in todays western world, but between you and me, i don’t like using said word. Anyways, thats my real concern. I really want to tell people of my beliefs and spiritual experiances, cuz i find in todays world people need to hear about these things. MAYBE just MAYBE 1 or 2 people i talk to will be swayed by my experiances and start to treat the world more like and animist does.

Coming to another point, what IS the difference between animism and shamanry. To me animism is a belief, shamanry is a way of practicing said belief. You have a belief, so what do you DO about it, that would be shamanry. To me we are all part of the “Dao” or the flow of nature. dao is the “great spirit” or “brahman” so to speak. So what do i do with this belief, i recognise that if that be the case then i should be able to ask the other spirits for help. Since we are not seperate, indivduality is but an illusion. I follow my inner nature, the flow of dao that is in me (de or atman), knowing that it is what connects me to the rest of Brahman. I ask the spirits for help when i need it, and try to help them if they ask. I achieve said task using shamanry as a tool. Since it is an age old tried and true way of communicating with the spirits. Anwyas thats just me, and that is why i sometimes use the word shamanic to describe my spiritual practices.

-Tj

#5
So yes i am hesitant to call myself one, but if someone asks me I say shamanic daoism anyways.

I think that is wise. I practice certain shamanic activities, but never call myself a shaman. A “shamanic practioner” can be okay, too.

Coming to another point, what IS the difference between animism and shamanry. To me animism is a belief, shamanry is a way of practicing said belief. You have a belief, so what do you DO about it, that would be shamanry.

That is certainly one way of looking at animism and shamanism. To me, animism is not a belief but a form of experience. It is an awareness that everything around you is alive, aware and responsive. It does not require you to believe anything in particular.

In the traditions I have learned shamanism from, a shaman takes on whatever belief he or she needs in order to cause a positive change in another person, a situation or a relationship. The question might be: you have a belief, so what do you do WITH it?

To me we are all part of the "Dao" or the flow of nature. dao is the "great spirit" or "brahman" so to speak. So what do i do with this belief, i recognise that if that be the case then i should be able to ask the other spirits for help.

I have been thinking a great deal about this. I feel sometimes that in one way, animism is the experience of the awareness and communication with the life around you and in you. Shamanism is like taking that experience and using it to heal someone else. Your beliefs then, are simply the things you use to convince your mind that it is possible to apply that experience and use it to cause healing.

I follow my inner nature, the flow of dao that is in me (de or atman), knowing that it is what connects me to the rest of Brahman. I ask the spirits for help when i need it, and try to help them if they ask. I achieve said task using shamanry as a tool. Since it is an age old tried and true way of communicating with the spirits. Anwyas thats just me, and that is why i sometimes use the word shamanic to describe my spiritual practices.

Makes sense to me. :wink:

#6

yay, i like it when people agree with me lol…

Anyways, yea calling myself a shaman, is something i would not do. And i agree with the other thing you said as well about the difference between animism and shamanism. That MAY be what i wanted to say, i’m not sure anymore, lol. Hey im allowed to be confused at times.(lol i just tried to erase a dot there for 2 minutes only to realise it was dust on my screen).

Anyways getting to my original question: if i called me path “shamanic daoism” or something similar, does anyone see any problems arising from that. well MAJOR ones at least, since (going by what you said) daoism = belief, shamanic = the practice. And i think by that the animism part should be obvious. plus it sounds “cooler”. [Ok ok, thats the wrong reason, but i AM human, and i like to indulge myself sometimes and try to sound “cool”. So no one comment on that please].

-Tj

#7
Anyways getting to my original question: if i called me path "shamanic daoism" or something similar, does anyone see any problems arising from that. well MAJOR ones at least, since (going by what you said) daoism = belief, shamanic = the practice. And i think by that the animism part should be obvious. plus it sounds "cooler". [Ok ok, thats the wrong reason, but i AM human, and i like to indulge myself sometimes and try to sound "cool". So no one comment on that please].

Haha. Well said.

I don’t really see a problem with calling it “shamanic taoism.” You might consider that in China, shamanic taoism might be something very different though. The label might fill a role for you now that you are needing. Some day, you may find that the label drops away altogether. Or not.

I sometimes say that in my philosophy I am most like a Daoist, in the way I experience life I am an animist and in my spiritual practice I am shamanic. The labels make it convenient to talk about, but we need to also be aware of their limitations.

I think it is a human need to feel that we want to belong. Labels help us feel that we are part of certain clubs and not others. Help the ego believe it has an identity of one sort or another. That we are that identity.

But sometimes… just sometimes… we have those experiences where the labels fall away and no words or thoughts can encompass them. That I believe is where Spirit lives…

#8

I strongly agree with you that we all need to have a sense of belonging. And we don’t get that a lot in civilization, modern society in particular – so we find a group, subculture, label, career, identity, etc that we attach ourselves to.

But I often imagine what it would be like to be continually made to feel that you belong, from the time that you are born. By the words and actions of the tribe/family that call the Earth their home, the place where they undoubtedly belong. I think you’d rarely, if ever, have to question that you belong. There would be no such labels, no “I AM (this) or (that).” How much more easy would it be to communicate, knowing that others will understand! How uninhibited would you feel to express your needs, your feelings, the stories of your days!

That message of belonging, of being embraced by all that surrounds you, would be intrinsic to the whole culture and religion of a nature-based, tribal society. It’s a beautiful thing to imagine. I daydream about it all the time. But it’s extremely disappointing to wake up from the daydream and see the impoverishment of this need in modern society. It’s painful, in fact.

#9

lol, hugs there there… I know EXACTLY what ur talking about. its a relief to know im not alone tho.

-Tj

#10

My problem is that we’re appropriating a term from a group of people who have no say in it. Shaman is a specific cultural term, which should really be applied only to certain people in that culture.

#11

good point actually. But shamanic is a term much like a lot of other terms that have been borrowed from other cultures, that are now used generically. But since it IS a term of prestige, one of my issues IS that i am afraid i might not do justice to the cultures across the world (including my OWN ancestors) that follow/followed a shamanic practice. But you know what the thing is…anthropologically speaking shamanic religions were the first ones in the world, they were the starting of religion. Hinduism started out that way, so did Daoism and many others. Anyways maybe i am wrong in my assesment of things, the idea of this topic was to find out some kind of term that others would understand easaily, is a bit familiar AND is appropriate. Maybe thats the issue with eclectic spritual paths, is that they will never find one such term. who knows…

-Tj

#12

Dan, I understand your point about the appropriation of the word “shaman” and agree with you. Though, personally I have not found another term as convenient nor simple and direct as “shaman” when discussing this topic with others that fit as well for me.

I have never known anyone who has talked to the Tungus people of Siberia and had them complain about taking this word and including it in the English language. I am not sure it would really be an issue, since it is just a single word from their culture. They have bigger fish to fry with the Russian government trying to suppress their practices and their culture.

I don’t think that most people who use the word understand its full meaning nor its implication. This is unfortunate. As is the number of people out there calling themselves shaman in our culture. I think many misunderstand the word, and think that it is a label they can pin on themselves for status and recognition.

#13

[quote=“Little Spider, post:12, topic:951”]Dan, I understand your point about the appropriation of the word “shaman” and agree with you. Though, personally I have not found another term as convenient nor simple and direct as “shaman” when discussing this topic with others that fit as well for me.

I have never known anyone who has talked to the Tungus people of Siberia and had them complain about taking this word and including it in the English language. I am not sure it would really be an issue, since it is just a single word from their culture. They have bigger fish to fry with the Russian government trying to suppress their practices and their culture.

I don’t think that most people who use the word understand its full meaning nor its implication. This is unfortunate. As is the number of people out there calling themselves shaman in our culture. I think many misunderstand the word, and think that it is a label they can pin on themselves for status and recognition. [/quote]

…OOOORR what he said ^^^. it is SO nice to see someone else who has the same issues as i do, especially in this case…

#14

[quote=“Tj, post:9, topic:951”][quote author=BlueHeron link=topic=1006.msg10907#msg10907 date=1214089931]

That message of belonging, of being embraced by all that surrounds you, would be intrinsic to the whole culture and religion of a nature-based, tribal society. It’s a beautiful thing to imagine. I daydream about it all the time. But it’s extremely disappointing to wake up from the daydream and see the impoverishment of this need in modern society. It’s painful, in fact.
[/quote]

lol, hugs there there… I know EXACTLY what ur talking about. its a relief to know im not alone tho.

-Tj[/quote]

yeah. can I crawl into that daydream with you, Rebecca and Tj? :slight_smile:

how do we transport to that universe? wait–oh yeah, we get to create it ourselves. from scratch.

anyway, back to the conversation. . . not gonna call myself a shaman either. I believe the image that word calls up for me comes from reading The Spell of the Sensuous a few years ago, and it stuck with me, and maybe accumulated some decorations, snowball-like, from other reading.

I think of a shaman as a person who holds a particular space in a village-type group (Siberian or not), who facilitates understanding, assistance, general dynamics between human and other-than human people. Someone who specializes in that area, who so focuses his or her energy on the pulse of those relationships that perhaps other realms become neglected–sort of like a spirit geek? Maybe that simplifies the role too much. . .

#15

ahaha spirit geek…i like that…nice…i MUST find a way of using that term somewhere.

-Tj

#16

In reading this I’m finding the labels to be kind of useless to tell you the truth. They generally lead to a lot of confusion and misconceptions about what a persons spiritual practice actually is.

All the “isms” and “ists” don’t really tell me anything about what someone does or how they relate to their world unless I have read all the same books that they have.

And then, is it really any of my business anyway?

I have caught myself wanting to share the path that I follow with others and I always have to stop and ask myself, honestly, why do I want to do this? Do I think it will help them? Do I think that the spirits are not capable of finding this person and touching them in a meaningful way? Do I think I know what’s best for this person? Am I trying impress them? Am I enjoying the shock value? I enjoy talking about these things but I try to keep an awareness of the dynamic that is happening between myself and the other person.

My teachers tell me to be careful and not to talk about these things frivolously. Be aware of who I am talking to and why.

My suggestion is don’t try to pigeon hole yourself. If you say “I am this” or “I am that” what happens to that identity when you are not that anymore.

Recently, my wife and I took a young girl into our home as a foster child. She’ll be living with us until she is an adult. We had to be thoroughly checked out by the social services to be approved for this. So the subject of our religious orientation came up. It was an interesting thing to try to explain the path we follow. One worker googled it and came up with things that she was not comfortable with. So I had to explain further what various things mean and the significance of them and how anthropologists have misunderstood the ceremonies and written bogus stuff that has been put in the literature and all that. We did get it straightened out but it was a stretch for her. I appreciate her openness and willingness to get past a cultural bias.

So this is an example of the label being fairly useless. It meant nothing to her, or even a big negative, until we could actually spend time together and I could explain more.

#17
In reading this I'm finding the labels to be kind of useless to tell you the truth. They generally lead to a lot of confusion and misconceptions about what a persons spiritual practice actually is.

All the “isms” and “ists” don’t really tell me anything about what someone does or how they relate to their world unless I have read all the same books that they have.

Right, read the same books or had the same or similar experiences. The -ists and -isms are really place holders for ideas about personal experiences and practices. Unfortunately, in conversation I have experienced the draw backs of labeling myself as one thing or another. Many times people talk to me seeking to pigeon-hole me so that I am not longer a threat or potential threat to them. It is the fear of the unknown and a need to belong that makes us want labels for ourselves and others.

I understand TJ’s place right now, because a few years back I was there too. I was seeking a name for what it is I do or don’t do so that it would become part of the identity I was creating for myself. I think that is a natural part of our progression for adolescents into adulthood.

Now, I am in a place where the labels are becoming less significant everyday to me personally and seem to get in the way of true communication and understanding.

I have caught myself wanting to share the path that I follow with others and I always have to stop and ask myself, honestly, why do I want to do this? Do I think it will help them? Do I think that the spirits are not capable of finding this person and touching them in a meaningful way? Do I think I know what's best for this person? Am I trying impress them? Am I enjoying the shock value? I enjoy talking about these things but I try to keep an awareness of the dynamic that is happening between myself and the other person.

It is so vital to ask ourselves these questions. Often in conversation I get more of a feeling of intimacy from sharing stories with the other person than I do with exchanging labels. It is our experiences and the stories we tell about them to ourselves and others that makes us who we are, in large part.

There is a quote I always have attached to my messages on another forum that captures how I feel about this quite concisely:

We are always in the process of becoming and nothing is fixed. Have no rigid system in you and you'll be flexible to change with the everchanging. Open yourself and flow at once with the total flowing now. - Bruce Lee

I enjoyed the Spirit Geek name… that is a funny one. I will have to share that one.

#18

you know a lot of what you guys are saying makes perfect sense, and i have thought of before as well. I usually use the name as a foot in the door. I haven’t gotten in yet, but the foot will help make sure the door is never closed. I think part of it is also shock value, but u must understand why. When heyvictor talked of his experiance with a certain label he used while explaining the path he follows. I know exactly what u mean. My reason for giving the shock is to show people “look this is not true, things are NOT what they seem”. For me a label is a way of getting someones attention.

But you know what in the end of the day, ur right, language itself is human creation, and it’s about as good as any other human creation, utterly useless for anything but a short time. But that’s my point, language is a tool for understanding, its not a precise tool or a good one at that, but it gets my foot in the door.

Most of the time though I use labels such as “animism” or “shamanic” to save myself some time, in explanation. Instead of explaining what animism is when asked my veiw of the world, i simply say “i have an animistic view of the world”. Most people have some idea what it means, so they say “o ok”. Those who don’t will say “i dont know what it means” and i will have to explain. For those who do not further question, they obviously don’t care they just wanted a word. (like joey in friends says “well, i saw smthg i heard a word, i thot thats what it was!”), they don’t care like joey in that scene, WHAT that word meant really, just that there is something there and it has some name. For those that DO ask further, I will explain further, I like sharing my beliefs with people.

In short…labels and names like other parts of language are just tools. I recognise that, whether or not i ever knew the word Daoism, does not change how i see the world, but said word has its own importance, as a tool.

For example to me there is no individualism or ownership. This is pretty oobvious from my behaviour in daily life, u’ll notice it pretty quick, most people do. But i still use I and You. Just to make things easierr, cuz im lazy. At the end of the day it comes down to that, im lazy, if i can give someone a half an understanding with 2 words rather than a full one with half an hour of talking, i’d rather do option #1, and put in couple of words to ensure no grave misunderstandings. And also due to the fact that i generally suck at explaining things in a brief period of time, so i’d rather use labels that are defined by people, so they can go on their own understanding of the labels.

Although u know what i realised yesterday, most people i talk to abt this i end up explaining my beliefs from start to end and making them see for themselves what i believe in rather than leaving it with a couple of vague labels that will be interpreted wrong most of the time.

-Tj

#19
I usually use the name as a foot in the door. I haven't gotten in yet, but the foot will help make sure the door is never closed.

A few years ago I was briefly interested in the topic discussed here - and i read a little bit about it, on the web if memory serves. One of the stories of someone claiming to have become a healer in some capacity or another told of multiple bouts of drug addiction, suicide attempts, car accidents, heavy things falling on them, etc. & went on to explain how these sorts of ordeals were common ways of getting a ‘foot in the door’.

It would seem that a healers first patient is themselves. I can also remember reading somewhere, and I don’t think I can verify this, that wounds are the portals through which spirit can make a home, if they find the decor pleasing.

I recollect thinking: as someone who wasn’t wounded or afflicted I see zero reason to go out & seek those risky issues in order to change my lot in life - I wanted then, and by my estimation still do, to pursue useful endeavors as my gifts merit, and I wanted those to be sincere. Sincere in relation to all my relations.

That sincerity is what keeps that particular wanting to be from becoming a wannabe situation. I could even step it up and say I will be sincere, or I will foster heaps of sincerity, whatever the linguistic craze is round hree…

I think I, like tho others here, have some sense of where you’re at right now. You see truth in the belief that we are at all times in the mix with intelligences, and you see the severity of the situation which is the interplay of modern human means with those intelligences. & that’s great, that’s cool, I love it and I love hearing that, but why does that realization and your chosen actions have to be called anything.?

IF a group of people decides to call me something, well, I’ll shrug and do my thing all the same - be that label fool, laughingstock, hero, sage, whatever, lowliest disgusting worm, biggest deepest dude you’ve ever seen, whatever. Y’know whadImean, TJ? I already have one specific name [Hi everyone I’m Richard (:], I don’t require another more general one.

To put this another way, As a fisherman it wouldn’t matter to me if I net a school of guppies, someone will be fed, or, like the story of The Old Man and the Sea, hook a catch which begins a dangerous, unpredictable and, dare I say, wild adventure.

#20

Dao-ish Ecstatic Technician, maybe?
Sounds a bit like a rave DJ.