Irreversible effects of civilization

Visions of the Rewilding Renaissance
#1

:-[ I’m concerned about the effects civilization has wrought upon us and our environment, irreversible effects that will remain even after it passes.

First, there are things like nuclear power plants. Once they are no longer maintained, they will melt down. It would be horrible.

Then there is soil quality and deforestation. A mature forest ecosystem takes millions of years to develop. I guess many of them are still around, but often only in fragments.

Also, polluted water. I think there has been discussion of removing pollutants on one of these threads, and someone said we could filter the water. How???

There’s also our social conditioning into rigid and corrupt power structures, which begins from the day we are born. It is sempiturnally burned into our conscious and our subconscious.

Not to mention global warming.

Thoughts??

#2

Well, lets see. A lot of species have evolved alongside/because of us, and many of them will stick around. Plants and animals that aren’t native will be everywhere. A lot of species that were once localized are now planet-wide. Nevertheless, we’re short an awful lot of species now, and though some animals will rapidly speciate, certain classes of life, such as large mammals, will be greatly reduced for a long time.

A lot more metals and other deep-earth elements have been brought to the surface. A lot of trapped carbon has been released. This may seem bad at first, but who knows? Bacteria are already evolving to feed on industrial byproducts. Maybe we’re really digging out the raw materials for new types of life. One organism’s poison is another’s dinner.

Ran Prieur pointed out that long distance travel will remain easier for geologic time, as we’ve cleared mountain passes and leveled paths all over. What was once a rough climb over the alps is now a smooth incline through it, even after the paving is worn away. Tunnels and bridges will collapse, but leveled ground will remain mostly level.

I’d like to think that, after a collapse, we could recycle much of the corpse of civilization and start to replensh the earth faster than it does on it’s own. We know that many parts of the earth were managed wildlands for most of history. I think we can do better than the million year figure to build up a forest.

#3

Heehee, like my cat Ella (see pic). She’s the greatest, although I think she’d do worse than me at rewilding. She’s such a princess!

Will respond more later, but I have to go. Thanks for your thoughts.

#4

Urban Scout should post his photos of an amazing event…in the 13th summer of my cat’s life (what does that make him, 50 in human years), he has become (in all his declawed glory) an expert mouser. This summer “Mr. Sweetie” (I didn’t name him) must have caught and ate about 4-6 mice a day. Sure saved money on catfood! And he lost weight too.

All this to say we decided Mr. Sweetie has rewilded way more than we have. If he can do it, anyone can!

#5

Awesome story, Willem. I always figured domesticated cats would benefit from a paleo diet.

#6
Then there is soil quality and deforestation. A mature forest ecosystem takes millions of years to develop. I guess many of them are still around, but often only in fragments.

Nah. More like 3 years, after the primary, secondary, and tertiary decomposers have a chance to cycle through. After that, all you need to wait for is the trees to grow!

Also, if we would stop continously polluting the water, it could settle into it’s own layer of sedimetn and be forgotten about for several million years until it’s excavated to our precestor’s surprise. DId you know air quality dramatically improved the day they shut down the airlines after 9-11?

#7

Yes, that’s true, particularly those plants that were developed for agricultural purposes.

This means that future foragers can be well-fed (vegetation wise) if they play their cards right.

A lot more metals and other deep-earth elements have been brought to the surface.

This, to me, is good news. If metals are buried more deeply in the ground, they are harder or even impossible to reach, and civilization can barely redevelop.

(Then again, anyone interested in rebuilding civ can always just melt down and reuse the existing materials.)

I'd like to think that, after a collapse, we could recycle much of the corpse of civilization and start to replensh the earth faster than it does on it's own. We know that many parts of the earth were managed wildlands for most of history. I think we can do better than the million year figure to build up a forest.

To be honest, I haven’t done the research into forest ecosystems; I just remember hearing that figure from a so-called reputable source. I thought it was surprising, too. Perhaps what he meant by that figure was the evolution of a forest and not so much a re-growing or expansion of the forest.

#8

[quote=“Willem, post:4, topic:454”]Urban Scout should post his photos of an amazing event…in the 13th summer of my cat’s life (what does that make him, 50 in human years), he has become (in all his declawed glory) an expert mouser. This summer “Mr. Sweetie” (I didn’t name him) must have caught and ate about 4-6 mice a day. Sure saved money on catfood! And he lost weight too.

All this to say we decided Mr. Sweetie has rewilded way more than we have. If he can do it, anyone can![/quote]

Hmm, Ella does still have her claws. And, she’s pretty adamant about being let outside to chase/torture/kill little creatures. I live in the middle of Seattle and I have received multiple admonisments from veterinarians to keep her indoors (unless she’s on a leash) due to parasites, diseases, cat fights, cars, and other inhospitalities. So I take her for walks only, where she chews on grass and assaults bees and butterflies. If I should find myself in less densely developed surroundings, I’ll definitely try to let Ella rediscover her hunting and foraging side. 8)

#9

So… everyone … what about nuclear radiation, social conditioning, and global warming?

I also thought of physical conditioning (which has been addressed on this forum). For example, our bodies on a physiological level (perhaps not a genetic level just yet) have adapted to modern conveniences. If I were thrust out into the wilderness right now, I’d probably suffer pretty badly, even if I could quickly obtain wild/indigenous protection (fur blankets, shelter, etc.). After all, it’s not something I grew up with.

Something else: already, in North America and other places, large game animals are rare. If/When civilization collapses, a lot of people will take to hunting as a first resort to feeding their families, not just primitivists but also those who live in hunting cultures (using rifles). With no DNR to oversee things, and with the grocery stores gone, I can foresee a decimation, if not flat-out extermination, of those species. As far as I know, hunting rifles and many other accoutrements of modern hunting do not rely upon any other technology (e.g. electricity) for their operation. People will stop using hunting rifles when bullets and powder run out, but that could take a while… and it may be too late for some animal populations!

#10

???

What about them? (I’m confused)

#11

nothing his fear temporarily took over his keyboard…

gunpowder can’t run out. it and life are of the same essence, sorry. THe Chinese used slivers of bamboo as bullets…

Look guys, if people want to kill people, and build massive systems to do such a thing, they will.

But the problem is, no one can wrap around their mind that NO ONE wants to do this. It is the CORPORATION that is capable of such heinous acts. The promise of employment, and so on…

We must re-embody ourselves to every single action we take. AS people do this, more and more, as they already have been (as opposed to the false paradigm that no one is doing anything), such unconscionable actions cannot be committed. As conscientiousness settles in, smaller and smaller visions are built. With the nightmare of national and international disembodiment having past, people simply can’t act at the levels that trigger our deepest fears.

The crash is fake and based off of the concept that “if humans did NOTHING then THIS will happen” Well, surprise, surprise, my friends dad just made a million dollars selling off his stake in a company that creates what the EPA has dubbed as “controlled wetlands”. Al gore wins the Nobel Peace prize for his movies and his lectures.

Al Gore is B. I know, it kills, but he did what we all dreamed about. Travelling the country, changing peoples minds, helping them make small steps away from the cliff.

AS far as I’m concerned, this site is about people who are ready to re-create a more earthen existence. Crash or no crash, deer or no deer, self-Sustainable space stations or not, we’re here to get what our city-folk parents didn’t give some of us; an outdoor education. Some like me are hear to learn from the best and absorb trial and error of the things I don’t have time for.

I’m not saying pretend everything is okay, I’m saying quit pretending everything is fucked up.

#12

I’m not sure if any of that was directed at me or not. I’m not trying to strike fear into hearts or heighten emotions unnecessarily. These are just “issues” that I foresee having relevance to what we are supposedly preparing for (accurately or no), and I wanted to know if anyone out there could provide me with perspective. Or maybe there are others who have the same questions that I have. I thought maybe collectively we could come up with a description of our environment in a post-crash scenario. (It won’t ever look the same, hence “irreversible effects”.) Is this not an appropriate topic of discussion in this section? ???

#13

as opposed to yelling for yourself? ???

The Story of B is what I have found to be largest reason why internet people are moving towards a thing, for lack of a better word, that is a belief structure that everything is alive. (animism). The spreading of that message was the only thing people could do for a long time. Still, with one foot in and one foot out of the Northern Dream, that is all we are doing here, dreaming of a new Dream.

Having an international dream for so long makes one lose perspective as to how one can even go about creating a personal dream.

I thought maybe collectively we could come up with a description of our environment in a post-crash scenario.

Unless you have a scrying master, don’t attempt such things. You cannot know the difference between the truth and lies in the spirit world without a proper teacher and ally. Even those who attempt to see the future know that they are seeing a projection of yesterday and today, a straight line from two points. And life, is anything but, a straight line…

You are more than proper to ask and speak in any manner you choose (as long as you play nice?), but you cannot be so easily defeated. Your words sound like a beaten child who feels as if their master is disappointed. Speak as if both of your feet are on the ground and you are standing tall. If you cannot bring yourself to speak in this manner, then listen until you learn to speak from your throat.

#14
I thought maybe collectively we could come up with a description of our environment in a post-crash scenario

I tend to do this a lot in my locale. While, of course, you can never know exactly what will happen, I think that giving consideration to various possibilities makes a lot of sense.

I look around at the various farms and factories (some fall into both categories) and wonder things like:

What will happen to those cows when the rancher dies? Will they break the fences and go feral? Will hungry hunters shoot them? Or will the rancher survive and guard them mercilessly with booby traps?

What will happen with that factory? What kind of toxins do they leach into the ground and water right now, and how will that intensify when nobody runs the place anymore?

I also sit not too far from the Russellville nuclear reactor. I don’t even know how to begin to think about that place.

#15

[quote=“WildeRix, post:14, topic:454”]I look around at the various farms and factories (some fall into both categories) and wonder things like:

[quote]What will happen to those cows when the rancher dies? Will they break the fences and go feral? Will hungry hunters shoot them? Or will the rancher survive and guard them mercilessly with booby traps?
[/quote][/quote]

hmm, i spend more time wondering:

What will that farmer do when all his cows have died from famine/drought? Will he be more open to encouraging his fields to support more wild game? Will he stubbornly stick out the lifestyle he's always known?
#16

good point, jhereg.

#17
What will that farmer do when all his cows have died from famine/drought? Will he be more open to encouraging his fields to support more wild game? Will he stubbornly stick out the lifestyle he's always known?

In my experience, it depends on the farmer.

I know some who are willing to adapt to change, and some who aren’t.

In the past 10 years, the ones who have changed are better off. I know a lady near my parents’ place who raises totally organic, free range chickens and turkeys (she just could not compete in the same market as factory farms any more), and she’s doing very well for herself. She can barely keep the birds on the shelf … I mean … in the coop … I mean, out on the lawn. :stuck_out_tongue:

Then there are the stubborn ones. The ones who put somber, black and white ads on TV like:

“Please don’t support the environmental law being considered in the state senate. It hurts us little guys. It will make it more costly to run our family farm, and we have a hard enough time putting food on the table as it is… blah blah blah” with a visual attempt at heartstring-tugging: the farmer’s family, stoic and forlorn. Paid for by the Association of blah blah blah.

I want to say, ‘wake up! You are being edged out by corporate farms and suburban sprawl, not environmental laws. Switch to a niche market; switch to organic; don’t try to be a player in the nearly fully-corporatized market. Look at what your neighbors are doing.’

{/rant}

#18

yeah, exactly. it’s a real question, and there’s no forgone conclusion.

the power of tradition in the area is pretty strong, but i’ve noticed that permaculture interest has picked up quite a bit in the last year. i remain optimistic, but, it’s a very real question as to which way the farmers in my area are going to go…

#19

Damn, Tonyz. It’s a good point that we should remember that rewilding isn’t about collapse, and that we’d want to rewild even if civilization never collapsed, but sharing that point and trying to kill speculation about a post-crash world are 2 different things. Yes, all talk about the future is speculation, but it’s useful speculation, and it doesn’t have to “come true” to serve a purpose. One of science fiction’s best writers once said that science fiction isn’t about predicting the future but preventing it.

bullets and metal aren’t going away. I have friends who reload their own brass in their basement. People will probably be hunting with rifles for a very, very long time. The fear that hunters will overhunt game is valid, but the idea that it is government regulation would prevent them from doing so (or does) is civ thinking. Think of all the wildlife that keeps wandering into the cities and suburbs. People talk about them as being lost, of needing to go back to their habitat, but they are really trying to return to their homes. Nowadays they are driven off, captured or killed, but in the future, maybe not?

Anyway, those bullets are likely to be used on people as much as deer during civ’s death throes. I imagine “conservationists” getting laws passed that make poaching punishable by death, and forest rangers being armed with assault rifles. After all, it’s the king’s dear.

#20

At present, a great many people respect the DNR’s rules (or at least abide by them). So, at present, I think government does prevent ppl from overkilling. It’s not civ thinking, it’s an observation of others following a government’s rules.

But if it ever comes down to it, then of course the DNR would effectively disappear, even as it tries to maintain its authority. And then … who knows. I’m just saying that a sufficient lot of people know how to kill deer with rifles.

Anyway, those bullets are likely to be used on people as much as deer during civ's death throes.

Reminds me of this (from my favorite comic artist (and I do mean artist)): http://catandgirl.com/view.php?loc=411

Ha! :smiley: (I’m so morbid sometimes…)