Girls Gone Rewild

Regenerative Culture Social Technology
#21

For Dandelion

We both seem to want the same thing (a culture where women are free to live without being raped in any way shape or form, mental, physical, emotional or spiritual). Yet we have not really come to much understanding. Where has this conversation led us, other than further into our own ideas of having the right perspective?

I want to clarify some of my ideas on the attitude of victimization.

I’m certainly not proposing that choosing not to have an attitude of victimization will guarantee that I will never be raped. And I think it’s absolutely natural to not want to be raped and to live in a way that minimizes that happening. For me, living in a way that minimizes that happening means choosing not so see myself as a victim. This isn’t just philosophy, it’s basic physics. I have noticed how the victim mentality actually very literally draws and attracts predatory energy (and therefore contributes to it) because of the power that is given to the predator in fearing it so. Exreme aversion is a power vaccuum that screams to be filled, just as intense clinging is a guarantee not to get what one so very much wants.

When I lived in an intentional community, I watched with fascination as one member whose identity was very much that of a victim after years of living with an alcoholic was given opportunity after oppurtunity to wake up and stop identifying in this way. The more she held on to this identity, the more situations arose in which she was shooken up, or “attacked.” Some of the attacks were total hallucinations on her part, merely situations that she chose to perceive as attacks because she so required being attacked to have her identity.

I think that an extreme hatred of culture is a similar transference of personal power onto something which is conveniently abstract and uncontrollable. I say conveniently becuase if we believe so firmly that that which we hate is not us, then we can more easily depend on the despicableness of that thing to know who we are (we are “not that”).

Just my opinions here.

I also have a male friend who was so traumatized from being beaten up in school as a child that he became a martial artist. Considering some of the things he has gone through, he has come out remarkably positive, but the majority of his conversation is centered around issues of fighting, combat, war, knives, women he knows who have been raped. His entire consciousness is dominated by this one theme. It’s not that it is unnatural to be concerned with self-preservation if you’ve been attacked. But if you let if fully define who you are, you have given it a lot of power, since it can consume most of your attention and make you hallucinate, believing that there is harm in situations where there might not be. It is sad to watch.

As for the part about being too compassionate, well . … . compassion is compassion. There’s no 50% compassion. Either you are empathetic or you aren’t. I’m only intellectually empathetic at this point, but it’s a start. Empathizing doesn’t mean a support of unacceptable behavior. It means acknowledging that a human being is suffering. If we were to look within the heart of a rapist, I am sure we would see a suffering human being. A suffering human being is a suffering human being is a suffering human being. Because that person has caused another to suffer doesn’t make their suffering less real. It may make it less valid in some people’s eyes, but I doubt that ignoring the source of the perpetrator’s suffering will help us to really heal our cultural wounds. Putting a perpetrator in a lesser-than box is certainly easier though - cleaner and more efficient, and requiring less of a demand on our own hearts.

#22

Wow, good thread!

Gonna have to chip in some belated responses re: “Males posting to this thread as a sign that even men think men are evil bastards” topic. I’m not big on “etiquette” in the usual sense (ie, napkins, elbows, white after labor day, which way to put the toilet paper on the little roll thing…), but respect (esp for boundaries) is a very big thing for me. Whatever hesitancy I have about joining this thread (and I’d say this holds true for all the other guys who’ve posted) it’s not because we think men are evil bastards, it’s because there’s going to be some limitations to how well we understand the issues! :slight_smile:

Having said that, I noticed a few things crop up:

  1. self-defense - always a good idea, doesn’t need to be anything fancy and preferrably puts a lot of emphasis on avoidance;

  2. acting crazy - you might be amazed at how well this works against guys, but you have to be really convincing!

  3. this shouldn’t even need to be said, but no, harassment (of any sort) isn’t acceptable (esp on an everyday basis) and the sooner you can establish a reputation of not putting up with it the quicker it’ll stop (well, slow down to a crawl, anyway)

  4. only go as far as you need to. his rights stop at your body but the law looks unfavorably upon completely disproportionate action (never let this stop you from going as far as you need to, just remember that once the bastard backs off, follow suit).

  5. don’t let this become your whole life

Anyway, that’s my advice, granted it’s coming from a 6’ 5’’ long-haired crazy-looking guy that only worries about being out at night in really bad neighborhoods…

#23

i have thought a lot about the “violence as protection” method of being a supportive male to my female friends (which includes my wife) and how the violence could help or hurt the situation.

here are two examples, both of which involve me thinking about violence but not following through–one because i didn’t need to and the second because i chose not too.

1. scared on the subway

while riding the subway in NYC, a large man of differing ethnicity became incoherently verbally violent. he started lumbering around, gesticulating and making racist comments. he didn’t appear to me to be the typical homeless subway ranter who are generally harmless in effect–saying weird shit very loudly but never really doing anything physical (other than wetting themselves). he seemed relatively lucid but not completely which made me think: he’s either slightly drunk or high. he’s not so bad off that he can’t walk up and down the aisle on the train, but he’s consumed enough to not know to shut his mouth. at this point, i was just assessing the potential for danger–which i always do with my over-analytical mind when riding the subway.

when he started making statements about how “white pussy” was the root of all evil and lumbering toward me and my wife, then i started getting myself ready. my wife has red hair, and often stands out even among other whities. she also has “some junk in her trunk” and is more likely to get hit on in harlem than midtown. knowing that, i was very afraid that my wife would be an easy object for this guy to target his “white pussy” rant towards. and not knowing how violent he was capable of being, i readied myself for whatever violence i might need to protect my wife.

i decided that if he should make a move toward her that i should just go straight for his nose. i figured that would be the easiest way to make him redirect his attention to himself long enough for me to get my wife to the door and be ready to jump out at the next stop.

fortunately, he was more drunk than i surmised, as he fell asleep standing up (right in front of us) holding on to the pole. my wife and i were able to get off at the next stop with no harm done other than some very elevated adrenaline levels in my blood stream. after a cigarette, i was fine.

interestingly enough, my wife wasn’t that worried about him. i can’t remember why. maybe she had just written him off as crazy.

2. the ass-grabbing customer

a friend of mine was a waitress in small town arkansas. while eating at her restaurant, i saw a local (read: redneck) grab her ass and make some lude comments at her.

i was angry and analytical and started thinking about how i could do something to show him that he doesn’t have the right to treat her like that: twist his fingers and hopefully break one, pop him in the nose, put a cigarette in his eye.

but then i started thinking about how my friend is going to have to live with the consequences of whatever i do. yeah, maybe i could fuck this guy over for a minute (or get beat up trying to, at least). but i’m just visiting. she lives here and works here. this guy is bound to come back around again, and who will defend my friend against him then–when he’s both horny and vengeful? i realized that my protective feelings would just make it worse for her. even if i worked here with her, i couldn’t be there for her at every turn. what if this guy decides to take his anger at being “put in his place” out on her? he could follow her home or find any number of ways to get her by herself. and what if he has friends?

i talked to my friend about it later, and she was glad that i hadn’t done anything for those very reasons. she knew that she could keep his aggression to a tolerable minimum by not feeding into it. and she knew that if she stayed just out of reach but as a visible object, he was likely to keep tipping her decently.

in the first example, the entire conflict could have ended in flight. i do enough damage to let me and my wife get away. it’s a big city, and we are really not likely to ever see this guy again. in the second, the conflict would not have ended, and my friend would have had to carry the conflict on without me. i would have just been fueling a fire that she was working to keep at bay.

it hurts me that most violence towards women–especially sexual or other intimacy-related violence–doesn’t come from strangers. i can’t think of a single female friend who has not been the victim of some kind of relationship violence–and most of them were outright raped or otherwise physically abused in the relationship, if not both.

as the husband of a rape victim, i have had to live through the effects of her traumas. she had to learn how to let me hold her. we had to work to make distinctions between me and her victimizer: like “when i’m angry it’s something we can talk about” or “when things get serious it doesn’t mean i’m going to hurt you.” we’ll never be past all of this. we’ve made great progress, but there will always be more to overcome.

willem, i liked that you brought up the concept of sickness. i think about the difference between treating a symptom and treating the real illness. there is a time for each, but only one will bring lasting relief. i think misogyny is very much a symptom of civilization–not that it is exclusive to the civ, but it definitely flows freely from the plethora of pathologies that civilization has given us.

#24

How do we fix this thread? Or do only I see a lack of word wrap here? ack!

#25

Fixed it.

#26

Oh mi god. What a relief. Thanks.

#27

Tell, Nick, I said “sounds good to me”.

#28

New subject.
It is has been said that:

All shamanic powers are the powers of women's blood mysteries. Shamanic powers are the natural powers of menstruating, menopausal, and post-menopausal women: * Oneness with the earth, with Gaia, as a responsive nuturing presence * Communication with plants, animals, rocks * Weather making * Shape shifting * Invisibility * Communication with fairies, devas, elves, dragons, unicorns... * Foreknowledge * Acutely sensitive senses of smell, taste, hearing, sight, touch * Healing

Have any women on here experienced anything like this? If not, do you believe it? (I have no experience with any such things and they seem like rather lofty claims though it certainly would be fun if it were true.)

#29

I come from a christian family,with a Dad who was controlling,and felt the Man was the head of the woman.
He made most of the decisions,and felt that my Mom should be obedient to him and not fight his athourity.
I cant stand that belieif, and since my parents are going through a divorce,
I think my Dad has learned differently somewhat.
His girlfriend will stand up to him,and isnt as passive as my Mom was,
(toward the end she wasnt so much).
I have been thinking lately more and more how much our society is fucked up.!
I try to be respectful of women,but I have fucked up socialy at times either with remarks or actions that I totally regret.
I am never violent or abusive with women.
When it comes to manners I just dont know how to act sometimes.
I think this society has a lot of changing to do,and I hope I can be part of that change. ofthewood

#30
All shamanic powers are the powers of women's blood mysteries.

Penny, can you tell us where you got your reference from? I’d like to look into it more.

My friend Luke is really into reading Carlos Castaneda. We were talking the other day about menstruation, and he mentioned that don Juan (Castaneda’s native mentor) said that women usually make better sorcerers due to the powers of their blood mystery.

I have always been attuned to the menstrual cycles of the women around me. I don’t bleed, obviously, but I experience many of the same emotional swings–and not just as a reaction to their emotions. Often, I know when my wife is about to start before she does because of the moods I’m experiencing–along with dropping things. I was that way with my mother and sister (it really sucked at home because they cycled together) and with female friends in college if I was around them a lot when they were cycling. Even with girls that did not have extreme emotional aspects to their cycles, I would still feel about the same level of moodiness in myself.

I think my son may be the same way. I know babies are pretty in tune with the moods of people around them anyway, so I don’t want to jump to conclusions yet, but he definitely gets more emotional around my wife’s period time, too.

I’ve often wondered if I don’t have a smidge at least of a second spirit in me. Maybe it will help me be an excellent sorcerer.

#31

I’m sorry but… I can’t read the words “womens blood mysteries” without laughing a little under my breath.

#32

WildeRix

Congratulations on observing your own mood swings. Are you sure you were responding to the cycling women’s emotionality? Why don’t you think they were responding to yours?

I’m not trying to deny that women can be very emotional, or imply that “moodiness” is bad. However, I think that we tend far to often to attrubute moodiness or emotionality to women as some innate aspect of femininity, perhaps related to hormonal levels. Too often we overlook the emotionality of men, or assume that emotionality in women is a natural part of her cycle.

In my experience, the female cycle represents a shift and change from a more yang aspect in the begininning half (when she is on the hunt for sex, a mate, or a potential fertilization as ovulation nears) followed by a more yin phase of moving inwards as she nears menstruation after the potential of fertilization has ended for that cycle. I think that emotionality in women is due not in fact to a natural hormonal cycle, but rather is a stress response to living in an environment that inherently denies the sacredness of womanhood by forcing people to live in a frenetic, constantly yang way without recharging their batteries.

Many women in this modern culture ruin their hormonal balance by eating poorly and not exercising. They are encouraged to hide their cycling at all costs, seeking to appear from the ouside as the same despite the changes going on within them.

We are not given any special time to go inwards during this time of physical release as some women are in other cultures (while ironically, we look down on “primitive” cultures that give women time off, assuming from our own mysoginistic standpoint that women in theise cultures are hidden away by men during this time, when really they are probably relishing their time in the company of other women).

PMS, emotional outbursts and moodiness are not inherent biological aspects of womanhood - they are protests from bodies that have been polluted by overly yang foods in the American SAD diet composed mostly of animal products. When a woman eliminates an excess of animal products from her diet (I say an excess - I myself am not a vegan), exercises, gets quality, open and loving sex from her man or herself, and allows herself the time to go inwards and collect her energies, she will have little or no cramps, moodiness, outbursts, etc.

I might propose as well that your own moodiness might be the result of you not being able to go into your menstrual hut now and again and retreat into an internal yin state from time to time.

#33

I’ve frequently heard that, in the absence of artificial lighting, women’s cycles will align with the phases of the moon; also that, in a communal setting, our cycles will align. I don’t know how true any of this is, but if it is it’s way cool.

Since I got my mooncup, one of the things I’m thinking of doing is diluting the blood and using it on my houseplants.

#34
Congratulations on observing your own mood swings. Are you sure you were responding to the cycling women's emotionality? Why don't you think they were responding to yours?

I don’t think I’m responding to their emotionality. I think I’m responding emotionally to their cycle. As I mentioned,

Even with girls that did not have extreme emotional aspects to their cycles, I would still feel about the same level of moodiness in myself.

I feel like the emotional swings I go through are totally my own, but when I’m not around women who are cycling or when I’m not around women at all, I don’t experience these swings.

As for diet, I feel certain that it affects things in me. I have often wondered what aspects of my heath (including mental health) would improve if I ate differently. Perhaps if I improved my diet, I would not feel the emotional swings or wouldn’t experience them as extremely regardless of how the women around me were feeling.

I might propose as well that your own moodiness might be the result of you not being able to go into your menstrual hut now and again and retreat into an internal yin state from time to time.

I would like to have a hut to retreat into.

#35

Rix- that quote was actually from susun weed, who I was just complaining about, from her book Healing Wise. You can find some interesting excerpts from other books on the subject here :http://www.susunweed.com/moonlodge.htm

I believe it is true about the cycles and the moon. I wrote about it once in an essay about my hatred of electricity:

"I read once (and many times since then) that if we were exposed to the moonlight all women’s periods would regulate into natural cycles and we would ovulate when the moon was full and bleed when it was new. Around this same time I decided to learn more about the moon and to do an experiment where I would look at the moon every day, just taking a moment to notice it, if that was possible. Sometimes it is only up during the daytime, but if it isn’t cloudy you can still see it. The results were interesting because in fact my cycle did regulate as promised despite the fact that I made no effort not to expose myself to artificial light. I didn’t spend any more time outside than usual. I stayed up late and used electricity like always. I went to bed under the glare of streetlamps just like everyone else. All I did was think about the moon and it worked.

Perhaps it helped that I slept in a room with a skylight and large windows. Another funny thing is that on the nights when the moon wasn’t up until the middle of the night I would, for no reason, awaken out of my sleep when it was directly overhead framed in the skylight. I would observe it for just a moment before falling peacefully back asleep. This isn’t an argument that we should all go around thinking about the moon and everything will be okay. I still hate artificial lights. "

That was years ago and since then my cycle has gotten screwed up and has been exactly backwards for the last year or so, but I’ve been camping more often recently and paying more attention to the moon phases and I think it is slowly switching, I’m losing a few days each month so I will ovulate when it is full again. Or maybe it’s just switching because I am aware and I kind of want it to switch.

#36
Rix- that quote was actually from susun weed, who I was just complaining about, from her book Healing Wise.

Thanks, Penny. I think I actually have a copy of Healing Wise that a friend loaned me. I listened to one of her talks on some mp3 that I got for buying a foraging board game once. I’ll see if I can dig up the link to the mp3. She wasn’t crazy in her talk (with Jon Young, iirc), but she was pretty overbearing. Regardless of Weed’s personality, I do find this stuff very interesting.

I don’t know much about astrology, but I have always felt very closely aligned to the moon. My departure from Christianity (my family would probably call it a “descent into paganism”, but like Urban Scout in reference to leaving high school, I prefer to think of it as “rising out”) was definitely fostered by my love for the moon as a guiding and nurturing force in my life–that and some things Daniel Quinn put in my head.

As for regulating flow, my wife has had a lot of luck using raspberry leaf tea as a uterine tonic. It helps her flow come along when she has gone for an extended amount of time between periods, and it also helps her flow be less overwhelming.

#37

Penny Scout:

Maca root powder is excellent for returning the cycle back to a consistent flow (beware, it will also make you very fertile and horny).

#38

a couple things.

  1. last time some dude grabbed my ass i threw him off a porch and kicked his ribs in. i like to think i’m really intolerant of shitty behaviour and this has been developped over years of being verbally and physically assaulted by asshole dudes, shithead cops, and violent girls. i really do not appreciate it when other people ‘step in’ to a situtation like that on my behalf. if i feel i can handle a situation… i want to handle that situation. if i feel i can’t i will ask for help. i dont want someone stepping up to ‘protect me’ from a situation i feel capable of handling. it’s happened to me a lot and i find it extremely frustrating and disempowering. general rule of thumb for helping survivors - support what they want to do. if they don’t want revenge then revenge is not yours to dish out on their ‘behalf’. period. end of story. even if you think they’re being ‘weak’ or ‘misguided’.

  2. as a herbalist i find the idea that women are inherently better healers than men very offensive. i get that a lot from susun weed/wise woman types. i respect their work as herbalists, but i think it is a very sexist and discriminatory paradigm. i also find it offensive when people with first nations ancestry are thought to be ‘more in touch with the earth’ and just ‘naturally better healers’ b/c of ancestry.

#39

Hey Nettles,

I totally agree with you. Thanks for your comments!

#40

What if evolutionarily (I don’t know. Does that sound right?) female humans evolved more successful at healing. What if they, you, must first have to figure out how to tap into that evolutionary instinct and how to use it, then you can muster up a better chance.

Perhaps we all have an equal opportunity. Sexist or evolution? Personally, IDC, either way or anyway I don’t know, as long as I get healed without chronic or permanent negative side-effect. That would suck.

I’d also like to share this that I don’t really feel any more or less different than women except for (and this depends) during the Time Of The Month, then things can change. Things always change though, no?

Good blessings, ladies! Sounds real awesome and fun!

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