Should we bring more children into this world?

My Mom is a 5th grade public school teacher.
It’s only been in the last couple of years that we’ve reached a point in our relationship where we can actually talk about her job and how we feel about schooling.
I just read her some of what you wrote William on E-Primitive language. And it really helped us communicate with each other. It’s always been hard for her to separate her Job from WHO SHE IS. So when I’m hating on schools it breaks down our communication. Anyways… Her being “she teaches reading” or “she teaches writting” is a really beautiful way to understand things. I think everything teaches… stones, lightning, blood. I’m finally seeing understanding in her eyes and the defensiveness is fading away. It’s been a challenge to express to her my respect for SOME of the things/ways she teaches but not other things/ways… and NOT the system she works for.

I often feel very sad and fearful at the idea of haveing children someday. I can’t imagine those in power letting me teach my children how I would like/need to. I can’t imagine those in power letting me keep my children in the lifestyle I would like/need to.

I’m pretty well aware of the perks of homeschooling (or unschooling) which is why we tried it before sending our daughter to school to begin with. :slight_smile:

There weren’t a lot of homeschoolers in our area, so forming a group wasn’t much of an option. We did make it a point to get her out with other kids (regardless of age). And she had fun with that. But there wasn’t a yellow bus. There wasn’t a real classroom. She didn’t have day-to-day contact w/ her peers.

Now, for me at her age, none of this would have been a problem! ;D

Eh, sometimes people (including kids) have to learn things the hard way.

Anyway, I’m not coming down on homeschooling/unschooling or anything, even if it didn’t seem to work out for us. I think it’s great and it’s obviously much, much closer to how we should be raised and taught. I’d absolutely recommend that everyone try it.

Rix, I feel your pain.

It’s a rare day for me when I don’t feel trapped and enslaved by the myriad things that this culture keeps throwing in my way.

I wish I had something more to offer than this, but, for what it’s worth, you aren’t alone; you have a lot of people that want out, that want free, and that want to help anyone and everyone else that’s on the same road. Do what you can the best you can, and don’t let anyone else (esp Mother Culture!!) tell you it’s not good enough!

for what it's worth, you aren't alone
it's worth a hell of a lot. thanks, j!

the truly ideal is not always the most ideal for the moment you’re in. my wife and i wanted to breastfeed our baby because it’s the most ideal nutrition for a human child. but our situation sucked: postpartum depression affecting her milk production–both of which affected her state of mind, which produced a feedback cycle that became crippling to both her and my son. in the end, feeding him civilization’s scientific concept of what a baby should eat from an artificial boob was the best thing for us in that situation. if she’d had someone to turn to, if we weren’t stuck in NY with no affordable lactation consultant more than a $45 car ride away, if her mom could just stay with us for a few more months, if my asshole boss would just let me use my vacation time…

Do what you can the best you can, and don't let anyone else (esp Mother Culture!!) tell you it's not good enough!
i think that that's what parenthood is: do the best with what you've got to give your kid the best you're capable of giving right now. that sentence is filled with so many conditionals, but it has to be.
Eh, sometimes people (including kids) have to learn things the hard way.
sometimes the hard way is the best way to learn. it may teach your daughter more than she'll let you teach her.

i used to get really mad at my dad for not letting me learn things the hard way. i’m sure he was thinking that if he let me do things on my own i would fuck them up and he’d be the one that would have to come clean up my mess. but i would have learned so much more if he would have just let me fuck them up.

the majority of my life is filled with slavery metaphors right now.

Haha. I hear that.

i have to make it work for me.

I hear that. Follow your heart, make it work.

the ideal would probably be for me to get a divorce, live in a hut in my friends' back yard and be the teacher for all my friends' kids.

Haha. Don’t do that!

I think it will all come in time. I honor those who can stomach the compulsory schooling environment. I still have to throw down my 2 cents about it though. I know it can come across like a judgement: if you work in schools you suck! That’s not how I feel or what I’m saying. Willem and I work with two science teachers at a local high school who run a “theories of knowledge” elective. In the class the kids read Daniel Quinn and Derrick Jensen and John Taylor Gatto. They have us come in and talk with the kids about surviving the collapse and preparing for it mentally. Some of the kids think were crazy, others are starving for it. However, I told the teachers that I will not lie to the kids, and will encourage them to drop out of high school (which I did). Haha. They were like, “Don’t worry, it’s a theories of knowledge class, and we’ll tell parents that you’re guest speakers on the subject of school & collapse.” I didn’t hear about any parents having concerns.

Pretty fucking cool teachers. I just can’t imagine standing in their place, nor would I ever dream of doing so. Thank goodness they do the work they do. If you feel called to do that, right on. And also, don’t have any illusions about the system.

I might be slightly biased since I have a six month old boy…but…

One time the thought came to me when I was out deep in the woods having a pretty good connection. ( I try and listen to these thoughts when they happen like that…) The thought was something like this. 'Humans have been a part of the natural world for a long time. I notice that once I really get into the woods the animals just begin to accept my presence, maybe even enjoy it! Like they are saying ‘hey were you been?’ ’
The planet’s ecosystem has gotten used to a certain number of humans interacting with it, even acting as caretakers of it. So the ecosystem needs a certain number of these aware ‘caretaker’ humans to remain on the planet…

God now that I write it, I realize just how egotistical it really is…
I guess the wooly mammoth, sabertooth tiger, and all the other large mammals(and small ones) that went extinct at the hand of man, probably don’t really think that one more of us is a good idea no matter how you try and justify it…Damn it!

As far as education goes… I am a product of the public skool system.
My mom was a life long teacher. The more I learn, the more I realize that I am going to homeschool my kids as long as they can stand it. Public school teaches kids how to be good capitalists, that’s it. Private schools are so expensive you have to be rich, or sell your soul to pay for it.

Since John Taylor Gatto and criticisms of compulsory schooling have come up in this thread, I’m going to post a small excerpt from an essay titled: Against School that JTG wrote for Harper’s magazine in September of 2003.

http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/hp/frames.htm

I saved the magazine when I first read it in 2003 because it had such an impact on me. The last couple of days I’ve been reading anti-school stuff because of a nasty response I got to one of my letters in the local newspaper from a teacher in the area.

Take care,

Curt

It was from James Bryant Conant-president of Harvard for twenty years, WWI poison-gas specialist, WWII executive on the atomic-bomb project, high commissioner of the American zone in Germany after WWII, and truly one of the most influential figures of the twentieth century-that I first got wind of the real purposes of American schooling. Without Conant, we would probably not have the same style and degree of standardized testing that we enjoy today, nor would we be blessed with gargantuan high schools that warehouse 2,000 to 4,000 students at a time, like the famous Columbine High in Littleton, Colorado. Shortly after I retired from teaching I picked up Conant’s 1959 book-length essay, The Child the Parent and the State, and was more than a little intrigued to see him mention in passing that the modem schools we attend were the result of a “revolution” engineered between 1905 and 1930. A revolution? He declines to elaborate, but he does direct the curious and the uninformed to Alexander Inglis’s 1918 book, Principles of Secondary Education, in which “one saw this revolution through the eyes of a revolutionary.”

Inglis, for whom a lecture in education at Harvard is named, makes it perfectly clear that compulsory schooling on this continent was intended to be just what it had been for Prussia in the 1820s: a fifth column into the burgeoning democratic movement that threatened to give the peasants and the proletarians a voice at the bargaining table. Modern, industrialized, compulsory schooling was to make a sort of surgical incision into the prospective unity of these underclasses. Divide children by subject, by age-grading, by constant rankings on tests, and by many other more subtle means, and it was unlikely that the ignorant mass of mankind, separated in childhood, would ever re-integrate into a dangerous whole.

Inglis breaks down the purpose - the actual purpose - of modem schooling into six basic functions, any one of which is enough to curl the hair of those innocent enough to believe the three traditional goals listed earlier:

  1. The adjustive or adaptive function. Schools are to establish fixed habits of reaction to authority. This, of course, precludes critical judgment completely. It also pretty much destroys the idea that useful or interesting material should be taught, because you can’t test for reflexive obedience until you know whether you can make kids learn, and do, foolish and boring things.

  2. The integrating function. This might well be called “the conformity function,” because its intention is to make children as alike as possible. People who conform are predictable, and this is of great use to those who wish to harness and manipulate a large labor force.

  3. The diagnostic and directive function. School is meant to determine each student’s proper social role. This is done by logging evidence mathematically and anecdotally on cumulative records. As in “your permanent record.” Yes, you do have one.

  4. The differentiating function. Once their social role has been “diagnosed,” children are to be sorted by role and trained only so far as their destination in the social machine merits - and not one step further. So much for making kids their personal best.

  5. The selective function. This refers not to human choice at all but to Darwin’s theory of natural selection as applied to what he called “the favored races.” In short, the idea is to help things along by consciously attempting to improve the breeding stock. Schools are meant to tag the unfit - with poor grades, remedial placement, and other punishments - clearly enough that their peers will accept them as inferior and effectively bar them from the reproductive sweepstakes. That’s what all those little humiliations from first grade onward were intended to do: wash the dirt down the drain.

  6. The propaedeutic function. The societal system implied by these rules will require an elite group of caretakers. To that end, a small fraction of the kids will quietly be taught how to manage this continuing project, how to watch over and control a population deliberately dumbed down and declawed in order that government might proceed unchallenged and corporations might never want for obedient labor.

That, unfortunately, is the purpose of mandatory public education in this country. And lest you take Inglis for an isolated crank with a rather too cynical take on the educational enterprise, you should know that he was hardly alone in championing these ideas. Conant himself, building on the ideas of Horace Mann and others, campaigned tirelessly for an American school system designed along the same lines. Men like George Peabody, who funded the cause of mandatory schooling throughout the South, surely understood that the Prussian system was useful in creating not only a harmless electorate and a servile labor force but also a virtual herd of mindless consumers. In time a great number of industrial titans came to recognize the enormous profits to be had by cultivating and tending just such a herd via public education, among them Andrew Carnegie and John D. Rockefeller. John Taylor Gatto

For my self, being a high school dropout who has returned to college(about 10 years later!),and a brand new daddy, this is alot to consider and take in.
I am at this point in my life am constantly reminded of the faults of capitalism.
To me anything perpetuating a constantly renewing structure for a consumerist monoculture is something to be shunned-
at least at first glance.I suppose the point I make with that is that I’m not too sure what I’m going to do when it’s time to send my son to school.
I most certainly feel that my wife and I are capable of teaching our son what we view to be a better way to live, and a better way to reconnect and view the world we live in,and we also have been adamant on giving him the information and the viewpoint, and when the time comes, let him make his own choices.
One thing we do know about his schooling, is that we aren’t planning on ‘schooling’ him in the USA, but alas, it does seem that the Capitalist disease has spread in almost all directions and corrupted and co-opted many a country and many a mind across the globe.
Though i have found reading Derrick Jensen both exhilarating and horrifying I will have to check out the books on the school system,it seeming that they are even more horrifying than what Jensen said, it would only be correct to explore such information since I have been made aware of it here.
I will also check out the unschooling book.

tsuchi,

I most certainly feel that my wife and I are capable of teaching our son what we view to be a better way to live, and a better way to reconnect and view the world we live in,and we also have been adamant on giving him the information and the viewpoint, and when the time comes, let him make his own choices.

I think this is a very important realization. Most parents that I know don’t think they’re capable of teaching their kids what they need to know. And this is probably because the parents had what they needed to know schooled out of them long ago.

I’ll post a link to an amazing radio interview about Unschooling that you might be interested in.

http://thestory.org/archive/the_story_191_School_Not.mp3/view

And here is really good essay talking about why we think we need schools to learn.

http://www.ishmael.com/Education/Writings/unschooling.shtml

Good luck!

Curt

Thanks Curt!
I will check both of those our today!

tsuchi,

Your welcome!

Curt

hey, if any of you folks are coming to Feral Visions, please consider initiating a discussion or doing a workshop on this topic,… or both! maybe something on challenging the history of compulsory schooling, and some sort of free discussion on the challenges and benefits of raising feral kids… i’ll be there and if nobody else does i’ll put the discussion on the schedule.

I don’t believe I will ever be able to answer this question with a yes or no. I can see pros and cons regarding both sides, but I don’t even feel that it makes sense or reason for me to consider them, because I have felt such a strong need to have babies from my earliest childhood, at least. I remember dreaming of giving birth, dreaming of finding a baby, any way that I could imagine getting a baby of my own. This dreaming began at least as early as eight years old, probably earlier. By the time I was 16 years old, I felt an almost panicked need to have a baby, to mother, yet I waited long years, yearning for children, until I was 25. My point: Could I have lived without children? – I don’t think so. So, I could rationalize a movement to reduce the population via abstaining from breeding, but in order to even make that argument, I would have to turn away from my feeling part, the need not just to mother, but to actually give birth, breastfeed, see the combination of mine and another’s features.

I remember dreaming of giving birth, dreaming of finding a baby, any way that I could imagine getting a baby of my own. This dreaming began at least as early as eight years old, probably earlier.

My most frequently reoccuring dream also involves some variation on giving birth, breatfeeding, finding babies, rescuing babies…

Quoting loincloth man:

“I’ve read his other book “Dumbing Us Down: The Hidden Curriculum of Compulsory Schooling,” but I was not able to finish Underground History. … I couldn’t finish it because the whole fucking thing is just so horrific.”

I got a lot more pissed off reading John Holt, who identified many of these same issues 40 f***ing years ago. How Children Fail was published in 1964!

But it’s worse than that. In the Eight Year Study, longitudinal research was conducted in the 1930s with the assistance of high schools and colleges across the country. The results of the study, the most comprehensive in the history of educational research, showed that experimental schools and multidisciplinary curriculum greatly improved the success rates of students. This study proved that the less classroom-like the school was, the better the students did. This research was published in 1942!

Gatto nails it. It’s a fabulous read with application to modern social institutions across the world.

“But I think that it’s also like joining the police to make a difference: you still end up beating up the poor.”

Yes. I fell into teaching, I didn’t have any formal classroom management skills … I felt conflicted and trapped by the rules. Which is the way the system is designed to work, of course.

I’ve never had any particular interest in babies or children. Actually, I’ve been telling everyone since I was seven that I never wanted to have kids. And everyone would just roll their eyes knowingly at me and say something like, “Sure, that’s what you say now. It’ll be different when you’re older.” Well, I’m 21 now and I still don’t want kids. I have developed a keen interest in baby names, and I’ve often wondered what I’d name a kid of mine as a result, but ultimately it’s all about the etymology. When I think of naming someone, I get excited. When I think of actually raising a kid, I feel tired. So I’ve concluded that what I really want is fictional characters to create and name - and lots of them! If I ever do have a kid, it’ll be just that: a kid. One. And just thinking of all the trouble of raising one child makes me feel exhausted.

Funny… I used to think, when I was a child, that when I grew up I’d remember what it was like to be a kid and how I wanted to be treated by grown-ups and then treat the children in my life accordingly. But of course, I don’t remember and now children just annoy me. ::slight_smile: Probably should have written it down or something. Oh well.

my partner and i were involved in the parenting workshop at FV’05 (couldnt afford to make it last summer) we covered a lot of stuff during the little block we had and many of us still stayed late to continue sharing.

we touched on everything from plastic toys to unschooling to breastfeeding to “forcing” a lifestyle on a child to going diaper-free to legal issues

i planned on writing up a report but i feel its too late now, however if there are certain areas youre interedsted in i’d be glad to recall as much as i can. hell maybe i’ll still write a brief summary…

i planned on writing up a report but i feel its too late now, however if there are certain areas youre interedsted in i'd be glad to recall as much as i can. hell maybe i'll still write a brief summary...

If you have time, I’d love to read anything you wish to write up. Thank you.

i planned on writing up a report but i feel its too late now, however if there are certain areas youre interedsted in i'd be glad to recall as much as i can. hell maybe i'll still write a brief summary...

It’s never too late! I second dandelion’s opinion. I would love to read it as well.

Prissy,
I used to feel the same way as you. Even as a kid I didn’t like playing with younger children the way some of the other girls did. I always thought I would be more of a career person. My husband really wanted kids, so I let him talk me into it. When I got pregnant the first time, I felt really ambivalent about it. When I met my daughter, though, everything changed. Not drastically, I didn’t suddenly want to have 12 children and I’m still not really a “kid person”. I still have to make an effort to get down on the floor and play, but I find it easier to empathize with children now. I am more of an advocate for children and mothers. Now I want to be a midwife because I want to help other women have empowering birth experiences. If someone had told me 10 or 15 years ago how my life would end up I never would have believed them.

I apologize if this is too personal a question, but, do you think you would feel differently if raising a child occurred in a tribal (or village) context?