Shamanism, Daoism

[quote=“Little Spider, post:9, topic:110”]Animism plays a strong role in my own personal shamanic/Daoist influenced beliefs.

Willem, I get what you mean. Shamans are often like basketmakers or other people with a particular skill set.

I guess my personal experience with them has been that they are often also wisemen and wisewomen, counselors, elders and much more.[/quote]

Yep! Sadly, I had confused the two as synonymous, and so for years found myself surprised at the immature and inane behavior of certain shamans I’d meet (along with other “spiritual gurus”). Once I figured out that, though a shaman can have a lot of wisdom, along with shamanic skill, one can also have a lot of wisdom without any shamanic skill, and one must work at the two separately (though perhaps they may support each other). It almost seems to me that in a lot of ways, “wisdom” reaches its pinnacle in humans relating with other humans, some of the most difficult work we can do. In Wisdom Sits in Places, you can read a fantastic Apache folk tale about an elder and four medicine men, where the elder has to save the village from the egotism and overconfindence of the too-helpfull medicine men.

Anyhow, my life improved a lot when I no longer projected innate wisdom onto skillful shaman that I’d meet, but instead took them as they came, with foibles and all. And I’ve benefitted greatly from really wise shamans, along with the fairly foolish ones.

Great Fukuoka link!

Anyhow, my life improved a lot when I no longer projected innate wisdom onto skillful shaman that I'd meet, but instead took them as they came, with foibles and all. And I've benefitted greatly from really wise shamans, along with the fairly foolish ones.

Sage advice. I can say I have ran into some shaman who definitely don’t have their ego straightened out nor are wise, but are more like technitions. Infact, the odd thing is that I seem to find more and more of them lately. Shamanism is a skill, and like any trade there are wonderful people in it and not so wonderful people in it, wise and not so wise, caring and selfish…

In different traditional cultures, there are different levels of internal balance and selflessness that is needed in shamanic work. Some cultures require the shaman to be a very well balanced and selfless individual who works for the people when they request his help. That is what I found is and was required in the Hawai’ian traditions. There is a great qoute from Hank Wesselman’s book VISIONSEEKER that captures the challenge of being on the path very well…

The greater our personal advancement along the path of power, the more vulnerable we become to the flaws in our own character.

I am thankful to have had the pleasure of being taught by and spent time with Shamans who were bright, light-hearted, humble human beings with a knack for understanding people and helping them when they are asked too. These same people live regular lives like the rest of us, and don’t hold a high opinion of themselves.

Being able to practice shamanism doesn’t make one a shaman, either. To me a real shaman is one who is out there to help, has reined in his or her own ego and is willing to put it aside at a moments notice, and who is also able to admit just as swiftly that they don’t really know. That has been the slice of the pie that I have been most inspired by…

If you go to a place like Peru (where I spent the month of August in 2006) you can run into shamans left and right. Many of them are sadly out there to make money, and even more sadly the best way for them to make that money is by doing negative sorcery on others at a clients request. Not all of them do this, but many do. There are also those who compete with other shamans to be the best and will go to war against them to be top dog. Like any craft or trade, this one can be influenced by the human ego.

In the same mouthful, I can say that the shamans I had the pleasure of working with really did healing work only to help others and feed their families. Many of them have had to deal with the negative side of things and some even continue to work to heal others at great personal risk. Such is life in the Amazon… where shamanism is part of everyday.

The book recommendation sounds excellent. I will put it on my booklist. Thanks.

:wink:

Guess I have yet to find my link to spirit, either that or I always have it. Don’t really know. I don’t much have what you would call spiritual “experiences”. I do feel energy, chi whatever you want to call it, had that since the first time I ever heard of it and tried to feel it. I see purple light behind my eyes if I’m in what you might call alpha state. gained that skill, if you can call it a skill, it’s more of an indicator I guess, at yoga ranch doing breathing exercises. And I’ve taken Reiki I and II (hands on healing) which seems to work, but not always. I don’t use it often.

I know these things are just tricks and don’t necessarily indicate spiritual depth, but I don’t know what else to say. I talk to plants. (I get especially loose lips when under the influence of caffeine or alcohol!) but they don’t talk back to me so far. Built a fairy house once in the woods and didn’t see or sense any fairies but a psychic lady (who had no idea I did this) told me the fairies wanted to play with me. Made and took a tincture to see faries once, didn’t see any, but fell asleep in the yard in my underwear. Tried some of Tom Brown’s meditations but didn’t really get anything. Went on a vision quest once. Got impossibly bored and jumped ship after 30 hours or so, learned nothing except not to try that again. Fasted once for 7 days on a hill but for health reasons not spiritual. Came down during the middle of the fast and partied. Fasted another time for 14 days, again health, not spiritual, went to school, ran, and acted normal the whole time.

I’m getting father off topic here and breaking the positive rule I know but I guess I feel a need to vent. I’ve been to all sorts of spiritual/herbalist/energy/crystal/homeopathic/acupuncture/massage/chiropratic type people with mild-no discernable effects for my myriad health problems…But I can’t judge for sure because they were too expensive so I was never able to stick with it.

Went to a spiritual development group for awhile where everyone gave eachother psychic messages, but while they were entertaining and none of the messages really affected me or my life. I’ve read LOTS of spiritual books: Buddhist, New Age, everything…but I’m more into experimenting and tangible results than philosophy in case you couldn’t tell. I tend to believe in things like psychic powers, a spirit world, shamans who can heal etc. and believe that other people have these experiences, but lack faith that I ever will (and no I don’t believe that it’s because I lack enough faith that I don’t have the experiences. I’m always willing to try and I think that’s guilt-ifying purist bullshit.) I don’t meditate or go to a secret spot regularly. Start often but just can’t make myself keep it up, and I figure if a spiritual practice is something you have to make yourself do, there is a fundamental flaw there. I call such practices “unsustainable”…I believe Scout knows what I’m talking about and calls them “self-help” in one of his blogs.

So where does this leave me? Am I just lazy and scatterbrained unable to stick with anything long enough to know if it really works or have I just not found my path yet? Either way I’m not overly concerned with it at this point. I just want to practice my primtive skills. Maybe that is my path for now.

I'm getting father off topic here and breaking the positive rule I know but I guess I feel a need to vent.

It was no rule, just a preference. I understand your need to vent, though.

So where does this leave me? Am I just lazy and scatterbrained unable to stick with anything long enough to know if it really works or have I just not found my path yet? Either way I'm not overly concerned with it at this point. I just want to practice my primtive skills. Maybe that is my path for now.

I don’t feel righteous, and don’t feel I can tell you or anyone here or anywhere how to act or think. I am not perfect nor superhuman and don’t pretend to be. So now that we have all that shit outta the way…

A simple observation on your writings… everything you mentioned starting you also mention not completing. Gives a bit of a skewed perspective, don’t you agree?

It has been my experience that I am a poor judge of anything if I don’t experience it in its entirety. Judging a joke without hearing the punchline or walking out of a movie without seeing the ending, definitely affects how accurately I see it. I by no means am the best at seeing things through to the end, but then again don’t consider myself an accurate judge of them if I don’t follow through. Guess what I’m getting at is… feel free to vent if it makes you feel btter, but consider not judging stuff if you haven’t stuck with it to completion.

Hey, even at completion you might think something sucks ass. But that’s life. I was a Catholic for 16 years of my life (born into a Catholic famliy) and found that after experiencing it for all those years, I really didn’t like it. Infact, I found it harmful and inhibiting to my growth as a person and so decided to let it go.

:slight_smile:

As you mentioned, I believe that for some of us… just living life (for you that might mean primitive living) is all the spiritual practice we need. Take a look at the Fukuoka guy… he is just a farmer, but his insight into life is pretty incredible and some might say, spiritual. He was not of any particular religious inclination as far as I know, nor did he spend hours meditating in a lotus position on a cold floor. He just watched life and flowed with it… that to me is the purest form of spirituality… its simply being in life. Relatedness.

;D

Yes, I’m quite aware and I do feel frustrated that I never finish things but perhaps we can explore what is it that causes someone to stick with something?

Results for one but those usually take time. Plus even things that have given me results reiki, yoga, various diets, the occasional herbal remedy, I don’t seem to stick with. Why not?

I think a real-life mentor as opposed to a book is important. A skilled mentor can keep you interested and push you just beyond your comfort level but not so far that you quit. But that can be hard to find locally and I don’t like to travel. Plus most teachers these days cost money. What is the unschooling route for spiritual studies?

Perhaps it’s like Scout and Willem always say…Support. If you’re friends and family are supportive and even doing the same things then it’s not drudgery and confusion but fun and sharing. Well I don’t have any local support but I’m sure you guys and gals here in the forum could help. Still I’m not sure where to begin. Which brings us back to the original question. What works for other people?

I’m not interested in not what people read so much but what sort of things people do routinely and what they get out of them. For example Little Spider how do you practice your shamanistic beliefs? How does it influence your everyday life?

Mmmm. Excellent point. Mentors are so important.

I have felt pretty stuck in some of my spiritual practices because I lack a mentor in that area. I can totally relate to what you are saying here, Penny.

I will find some good stuff to share with you and post it here.

For now, I can say that one of the links I shared earlier is very useful to me:

http://huna.org/html/teaching.html

First, I would suggest checking out the principles of Huna:

http://huna.org/html/huna.html

You could say that all practices come from these principles in Huna. The principles are working assumptions about the world. One way to quickly get started with Huna, is to play with the ideas found in that link.

Also, there is this great practice called Blessing… you could look at it as a somewhat altered form of the Thanksgiving address taught by Wilderness Awareness School and Chief Jake Swamp. If you are not familiar with that, I can explain it a bit in my next message. Here is the blessing practice:

http://huna.org/html/aspirit.html

I will go through some of my favorite material and post it here in the next few messages. Till then, enjoy!

;D

Here is another link from the Huna site that I think is insightful:

http://huna.org/html/ethuna.html

There are practices within Huna which I am excited to share with you here. However, a little bit of reading would be a nice intro so as I can spend less time explaining unnecessarily in the near future.

:wink:

taoism has been huge for me. as was buddhism for a long time. now though, i am finding that all the reading and meditating and philosophy was preparation for the act of doing that i feel i am doing now. i haven’t picked up the tao te ching in years but the other day one of the quotes rang loud in my ears while i was stalking out here in the desert. it was strangebecause i’d never pulled the two together and have actually been feeling very lacking in teh spiritual department. i think the act of watching the reeds bend and recognizing the wind slowly shifting direction on my skin and the intense but nonchalant focus on the deer brought me back to a place i haven’t been in a long time.
i didn’t think that learning to live less civilized would bring so much more than the ability to use a bowdrill or track a bobcat.
oh yeah, dreams, my dreams have been my most ‘spiritual’ teacher recently.

Probably the biggest influences for me have been christian gnosticism, asatru and taoism. The christian influence hasn’t always been welcome, but after a great many years of struggle, I’ve managed to come to terms w/ it.

Even tho’ I didn’t study either of them deeply, I do have to give some credit to yoruba & lacumi for getting me thinking in a different enough way to find the others…

Animism does it for me. It gives me feelings. Feeling of being connected to everything. A feeling that we keeps moving…non-stop. A feeling of anything can happen. A feeling that no two things balance each other out. A euphoric feeling. An incast and an equal grounds feeling. A united and diversified connection with everything. A rooted and knowing feeling of unending alteration of movement with everything. An boarderless and unseparated feeling. A growing sense of reality.

What’s a Shaman?

Suddenly I’m reminded of the movie Chasing Amy… okay, better yet, what does shamanism mean to you?

I’ve met a few people following, or, uh, not following, living animisitically - and some claim this title. I think thats kinda like a soldier in a wayward batallion saying “Now I am the general!”

I think alot more than that. But I want to hear some other responses before I continue my pressings and caressings all over these poor defenseless keys.

To me, a shaman is a person who works with all the many layers of what we call reality to bring harmony between humans and the natural world. This includes being able to call upon and interact with spirits, faeries, the dead and so on to bring about that harmony. This is a form of healing. They also might heal a person individually, but that’s actually the same thing if you really think about it.

I have certainly met some who call themselves shaman, but who are caught up in the game of inflating their own selfworth and ego. Those who pratice shamanic skills for the sake of being admired or feared fall into this realm. But personally, those people are not shamans to me. They are huckersters and cons, with a vested interest in themselves but not true compassion or calling for healing.

Anyone who tries to do a shamanic healing on someone else will have to realize in the process that they are not healing anyone… Healing comes about through a combination of energy and assistance from the spirits and the cooperation of the person being healed. The shaman in can not claim credit for this, since all he or she does is to help assist that relationship and perhaps act as a channel to feed more energy into the process. But, the energy is not from the shaman… it comes through the shaman. To claim that the shaman owns it, is like a drain pipe claiming it owns the water that flows through it…

To me, it is a bit like the paradox of understanding the essential nature of Zen or the Tao. You might hear someone claim to understand the Tao. Anyone who makes such a statement, immediately proves that he or she does not know what they claim to know. The need for that person’s ego to claim possession and control over something immediately proves that they don’t really know it. It is the same for a shaman… any shaman who claims to be a great healer, immediately proves their ignorance and arrogance.

:wink:

Thought I’d share my experience. I did a fair bit of study of everything, but when I really wanted to get serious, I did the following:

  1. There are many correct paths to spirituality but not ALL of them are correct.
  2. Is there a methodology that can show one how to learn ‘healthy’ spirituality?

(1) arose because I couldn’t understand the pagan sensibility that you shouldn’t judge anyone and that everything was correct. This seemed to defy common sense. If I practiced, say, Hawaii’n spiritual ways in the middle of a desert, they would seem superfulous and could even be lethal!

For (2) I looked to see if there were any examples of humans whom we could realiably say were ‘divorced’ from their original ecosystems and forced to take up a new spirituality. It turns out you can find examples everywhere. Here, I turned to the L.A. tribes. I was blessed with two examples, the Chumash, which popped up from 10-30 thousand years ago (depends on who you talked to) and the Tongva, who migrated to California a mere 4,000 years ago. Talking to those folks and reading their myths, you really got a sense of what forces they had to deal with, forces which are still abundantly potent today.

And that, my friends, is why I follow Sky-Coyote. :slight_smile: But the story doesn’t quite end there. It’s irreverent, ignoble and downright rude (not to mention potentially dangerous) to just appropriate native rites and call them your own. You can get adopted into a tribe – that’s fine – and the forces that impacted them are the same ones that impacted you but your relationship is different.

So, I reached into my ancestor’s legends, both on the Taker side and the tribal side, and found ways to reconcile their forces. I’m still working on it but I can say I’m definitely set on a path and there’s enough synchronicity occuring that validates it that I’m comfortable with where I’m heading.

An example is needed (I think)…

I put to paper a piece called “White Road.” One part of it deals with a couple going to deal with Death for the sake of the world. The oldest legend of one set of my ancestors, the Norse, deals with three gods who went to the border between ice and fire. Their names translate to “Will”, “Sacred Way” and “Passion”. Together, they challenge the giant that lives there and recreate the world. “Passion” (Odin) goes on to rule the new gods.

Working with the premise that somebody did something, their story boils down to three people went to a place, challenged and overcame something and from it, the world as we know it emerged.

Now what do I know from my Taker heritage? According to our science, the pale-skinned Caucasians came from the North; their pale skin came from a relatively uncommon genetic condition that adapted well to a marginal climate. Also, these pale-skins risked everything to stay in that climate. There was a Paleolithic ‘choke point’ for the Caucasian cline, an event that damn neared wiped out everybody before the Ice Age ended.

So the two stories are both honored by being fused in a way that preserves the meaning and significance of both. Three godly brothers become a family. Their challenge ends up based on chance, but still changes the world. Passion still emerges to become the ‘head’ of a new people.

I know its a long-winded post but I guess what I’m trying to put forth is that there are footsteps out there that our ancestors have left for us. Start with the people that lived where you live, honor those that came from somewhere else and from that, re-wilded spirituality start to grow.

Shamans… heh. I like the way it’s phrased down here. In Los Angeles, the Tongva has a protected class of people, those who skills were so cool, so vital, that they were all considered ‘married’ to the head of the tribe. These people were the takers of sacred medicines (down here, that’s datura, a really rough hallucinogen that works be spiking a high fever), expert botanists (those that knew practically EVERY plant in detail), basket-weavers, dancers, singers, storytellers and (finally) bisexuals / homosexuals.

In their tradition, if I was a Tongva, I would be considered a sacred person. I like that, because it doesn’t give me weird powers / unfettered access to spirits / mega-healing. It’s just me. :slight_smile:

Best

Bill Maxwell

Bill your post made me think a lot about the matters discussed here, especially my own words…

It seems that often for the ease of talking, I reduce things down to saying I follow or am feel most connected with (insert your favorite religion/path/etc.)… in my case maybe I say Huna (a form of hawai’ian shamanism), Taoism, Animisim…

But, truly I don’t follow those paths. They are not my path. My path, is my own. The best teachers in my life always seem to bring me back to that point. I would have to say the best teacher out there is Nature herself.

I believe that there is a path for everyone, and that is ultimately there own… I have agreed many times in the past that all religious spiritual paths are correct for someone. To this day, I still see this as true to a point. From my limited observations and conversations with others, I have grown to believe that finding your path is something that happens between the lines… or you might say, between the praying, chanting, reading scripture, drumming, or whatever other practice is involved in the spiritual or religious group or denomination you choose to work within.

Praying, chanting, etc. are great tools mind you… and they can give you consistant results, but… finding your path to Spirit happens in a way that is more your own than the skin on your back. No book, person or practice can capture that and hand it to you on a silver platter. They are mainly there, it seems, to get your mind out of the way.

:slight_smile:

The other day I read the wikipedia entry on Shamanism and lo a quote lent credence to something I wondered about a while back.


In some cultures, the border between the shaman and the lay person is not sharp:

“Among the Barasana, there is no absolute difference between those men recognised as shamans and those who are not. At the lowest level, most adult men have some abilities as shamans and will carry out some of the same functions as those men who have a widespread reputation for their powers and knowledge [36] ”

The difference is that the shaman knows more myths and understands their meaning better, but the majority of adult men knows many myths, too


I guess it’s sort of like the difference between a band that travels in a clunky van covering “Louie Louie” and “Free Bird” in bars and one that fills entire stadiums and goes platinum many times over. Not to say that one is better than the other or that one has more funloving adventures.

You never know - the bar band might write a lyric that plays a pivotal role in the life of someone who goes off to do something so miraculous it eclipses all the effects brought about by the music of the more popular one.

I would have to say the best teacher out there is Nature herself.

I would have to agree. Listening to the living world is about all anyone has to do to learn and open and breathe this type of thing. Having an ancient rich and well developed mythology to act as a spiritual trampoline helps alot - and that’s why I value the written works of certain lodestars in the field - but really, a shaman is basically playing Santa to a village of enthusiastic children. Open your ears - Tommy might have a million toys and no batteries and he’ll be more than happy to tell you so.

& you can bet he’ll remember an act of compassionate unconditional goodwill.

A quote I’d like to share, sort of related to all this, from a book I was reading today - The Wizard by Gene Wolfe:

…his wisdom makes him kind and his kindness makes him wise.

It still sends a thrill up my spine every time I hear another human being express this sentiment. I don’t know what else to say. :slight_smile:

Beautifully written response, Richard.

You never know - the bar band might write a lyric that plays a pivotal role in the life of someone who goes off to do something so miraculous it eclipses all the effects brought about by the music of the more popular one.

Anyone with a strong connection to nature and a true awareness of him or herself has the potential to be a shaman, only the depth of knowledge and experience as a shaman will vary from individual to individual.

Our connection to Spirit (or The Great Mystery) is a very personal affair. We humans do not have a mind that can grasp fully all the possibilities of the effects one individual might have on another person, group or place. But, there is no doubt we have a power that can ripple in its effect in all directions, even well into the future.

“Among the Barasana, there is no absolute difference between those men recognised as shamans and those who are not. At the lowest level, most adult men have some abilities as shamans and will carry out some of the same functions as those men who have a widespread reputation for their powers and knowledge [36] ”

That reminds me of the Bushmen in Africa. In some tribes up to 60% of the men and 40-50% of the women could act as shaman for their group. The Bushmen have a very interesting history, being probably the oldest group of humans on earth with the oldest unbroken connection to very ancient ancestors. This is a curious fact and reminds me of a story I heard told to me by one of the instructors at Wilderness Awareness School. I believe this was a story about Bradford Keaney, who did extensive research with the Bushmen.

Mr. Keaney made an amazing and rather amusing discovery about the way the Bushmen arranged and understood the Spiritworld. He spent some time talking with his host, who was a Bushmen shaman, about these things. One day the Bushmen answers one of his questions about some particular aspect of the Spiritworld, and subsequently gave an answer which was very elaborate and structured. The following day, Mr. Keaney asks about the same thing and gets a totally different answer. In his confusion, he asks his host why he answered this way this time but totally differently yesterday… To which his host replies, “That was yesterday! Today is different. I told you because I thought that is what you wanted.”

So I got several things out of hearing that story. For one, the Bushmen did not see the Spiritworld in a fixed way, and therefore, answering the same way each time did not make sense. Second, they did not organize their understanding of it in the typical, compartmentalized Western way. So the Bushmen who was sharing with Keaney was really trying to be a good host. He was telling Keaney what he thought he wanted to hear. But, to his people making a bunch of boxes and analyzing the Spiritworld with the intellect was not part of their tradition.

;D

[quote=“Willem, post:25, topic:110”][quote author=Richard link=topic=86.msg2826#msg2826 date=1184485183]
I would have to agree. Listening to the living world is about all anyone has to do to learn and open and breathe this type of thing. [/quote]

It still sends a thrill up my spine every time I hear another human being express this sentiment. I don’t know what else to say. :)[/quote]

Same here! I feel so amazed that the world willingly talks to us whenever we willingly listen.

Tony,

You were going to suggest a translation of the Tao Te Ching a while back, could you post that now?

oh shit sorry, thanks for asking for what you want to get!