Rewilding Havens

[quote=“Hypnopompia, post:25, topic:1142”]These Havens have benefits to the nomads in terms of a place to stay, safety, meetups, etc. I think some focus should be offered to the benefits to the host as well. If we don’t try to grow a symbiosis we won’t end up growing as much as we can. In a hundred years this pattern could be continuing if there is mutually beneficial reciprocity. Or it won’t survive much beyond the crash itself.

  • Ben[/quote]

For this reason I see the primary job of nomadic folks as caring for the land wherever they go, including the Rewilding Havens. In a sense, the folks putting a stake in the ground will get a constantly refreshing corps of help to revitalize and partner with the land. Anything else, like simple squatting, or freeloading, or whatever, I don’t see part of this deal. People have to support each other. End of story. Rewilding Havens exist just to help both groups find each other - the ones who support by holding space for a Haven, and the ones who support by bringing fresh minds and nurturing hands to help caretake the Haven.

And of course all the camaraderie that this kind of shared “work” creates.

The dirty secret: Human beings actually love to work, when they freely choose it of their own hearts, as a gift to themselves, each other, and the land.

So so true. The free choice part seems like the key here.

I’ve realized that I have no desire to spend hours gardening and “working the land” every day. But I think I would be happy roaming the countryside foraging, tracking, and hunting all day.

Yes, I think everyone would agree that all members of a community should contribute fairly - the health of any community relies on this balance of giving and taking. But so much of what I’ve seen on the WWOOFing websites sounds like “hired hand” type situations, with the people not just working to contribute to the people living on the land, but working to produce things for sale. This is where it gets unequal, I feel. Of course there wouldn’t be anything untoward about a group of people selling (essentially trading) food they’ve grown in order to obtain other things they need to live. But the group would need to share the resources equally, which isn’t the case when the process of selling the food (and receiving the $$) is kept separate from the exchange of labor for meals and lodging.

This is exactly what happens in capitalism, whereby workers are removed from what they produce - the workers get wages, while the employer gets exclusive ownership of the goods produced, and gets to pocket the whole value of those goods when sold. This is the definition of capitalist exploitation, because the wages paid are invariably less than the value of the goods, with the surplus being pocketed by the employer as profit.

So, to make a long story short, in order to remove capitalist employer-employee relations from the picture, it seems essential to me that all the resources of the community - generated from the members’ various contributions - be shared equally. And this relates to another thing that has been bouncing around in my head - whether or not this would require the members of the community to live the same lifestyle (the same standard of living). In other words, would it work if the people owning the land lived in a nice house (with electricity and whatever), while those who didn’t own lived in a trailer or in tents? Would this arrangement make it impossible for everyone to consume the same amount of resources, or would it necessarily be unequal?

I’m wondering this because personally I would feel awkward living in any community with such a disparity. To me, a true community means everyone fundamentally sharing their lives, which includes sharing living spaces (and having the same type of living spaces). And even more fundamentally, I just don’t feel that true sharing of life can happen when everyone’s living spaces are separated from each others, as in modern homes (thinking about how much of life is spent inside these living spaces).

But I know that lots of other people would want to continue living in their current homes, for example, so I’m not sure how this would all end up working. Probably this network would include the whole spectrum of living arrangements - just wondering how that would work out.

Jessica

The resources and the percieved disparities between the homsteaders and the hunter/gatherers would need to be managed by the members of the cooperative. The nomads have chosen a preferred lifestyle of fewer material possessions and lighter mobile habitats and ideally would not begrudge the homesteaders who put roots down and build permanent, warmer, more comfortable shelters, especially if the homesteader purchased and owned the land and was “holding space” for his Nomadic brothers and sisters. However if the land was owned by the cooperative and 80% of the resources were being funneled into “castle building” for the homesteaders while the Nomads were always broke, no gasoline or horse feed monies, tattered tents, meager supplies… then the “medicine wheel” would be out of balance and need to be re-balanced.

There is a natural trade-off or a price to pay for everything desirable that we choose in life. Both the homesteader and the Nomads make a trade-off for their desired way of life. The Nomad trades the comforts of Materialism for Freedom, and the Homesteader trades his Freedom for the comforts of material possessions.

I have noticed in my own life that material possessions have a way of taking me prisoner. They consume my resources, my time, freedom, and peace of mind. The more material objects that I “Own” the more work and worry that I invest into acquiring, possessing, protecting from damage and decay, thievery, etc. So instead of me owning them… my material possessions begin to own me. Sometimes I wish that I would sell it all and just travel around the country, exploring and camping for awhile where I like and moving along to someplace new. I am torn between Freedom and the comfort, security of materialism.

I am not a devout christian or a bible thumper but there is wisdom in the bible, and here is one of my favorite verses “Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.” You might want to substitute Nature for Heaven.

Things have a natural way of balancing themselves. It would be know amongst the Nomads which of the havens were more hospitable, accomodating, balanced, harmonious and they would migrate towards those Havens, and avoid the Havens where unfair disparities existed, and if the diverging havens were privately owned they would fall off of the Hoop, and if the Haven is commnuity owned then Stewardship would need to be changed to bring balance.

Together they could build a Longhouse where the Nomads could live in comfort during their stays at the Haven. On Havens owned by the cooperative, there might be an arrangement of rotating, alternating Land Stewards who would take a break from the rigors of the nomadic lifestyle for 6 months or a year, tending the Haven and assisting the Nomads,and then going back the Hoop and another Nomad would become a land steward for 6 - 12 months. This way there is no individual possession of houses, but a true sharing of both lifeways.

There would be so much to consider and arrange for, in a feasible, workable community cooperative of scattered Rewilding Haven’s and bands of hunter/gatherers.

Another interesting aspect to ponder is what objects the Haven might produce, besides food, to trade or sell for resources needed for the haven, caretakers and Nomads. In 1978 I made my own Tipi (or Teepee) with 100 yards of canvas and a sewing machine, and it made such a beautiful habitat to live in. I especially like the idea of making Tipi’s as habitats on the haven and also for trade. I love the vision of a harmoniouss community living in a large circle of tipi’s around a large central firepit.

For ideas… here are some websites where they make and sell tipi’s

Nomdic’s Tipi Maker - http://www.tipi.com/
Reese’s Tipi’s - http://reesetipis.com/
Long list of Tipi Makers - http://www.tipis-tepees-teepees.com/tipi_makers.htm

I’ll just relate my own experiences here and try not to pass any judgements. I don’t want to discourage anyone here. I would just like to relate some of the pitfalls that I have experienced.

I live in a nuclear family unit now. I have lived communally in the past and also in a “neighborhood” of very like minded alternative types each with their own place, but all adjacent to each other or very nearby. This neighborhood was also bordered by very large tracts of public land and timber co. land.

I was also a traveller for many years. I moved in a loose knit network of alternative communities as well as places that were known to be open for transient people like us.

I remember being very put off by the expectations of people in communities who let us travellers know in no uncertain terms that there was work that needed to be done and if we weren’t into that then we could hit the road. Later on I started to come around to seeing their point and if I wasn’t in the mood for that then I’d just keep my visit very short or stay out on the “road”.

I’ve bought two pieces of land in my life. Both came to us through very hard work and commitment. I never had those kind of resources handed to me on a platter. I have had people express that I had certain luxuries because I had land and a home. My response is that it was a concious decision to make that commitment that could be made by anybody if it was possible for me. The same goes for the “free” life of the nomad. It requires a commitment to what that life demands.

What many of you are talking about is something that I could see far down the road when a common culture is widespread and when the customs and world views of the nomadic people are at least complimentary with those of the settled folks. Expectations have to be clear and understood both ways. So many times I have seen situations where the expectations have been unclear or where the arrangement was begun with one expectation and when that changed the awkwardness set in. Hard feelings love to grow in those situations.

My home since I was in my early 20’s has always been a place for visitors to stop by. We have often had people stay with us for extended periods. Sometimes people have stayed at our home when we were gone. We often have a steady stream of visitors in the summer.

Since I have been tanning hides for a living I have had a number of people come stay here in order to learn to work with hides. I’m not really open to that any more. What I have found is that the people often have little understanding of the concept of investing in the learning process and commitment.
I have been mentored by people who do not “teach”. If I want to learn about something, a commitment is required. I must be willing to invest in the learning process. This is similar to an apprenticeship. An apprentice might start out doing all the shit work and it might seem to be work that doesn’t even have to do with what they are apprenticing for.
This might go on till the apprentice has just about had it with that fucker that’s supposed to be teaching them but is just using them for slave labor to do all the shit they don’t want to do. This is how I have learned a lot of what I know.
I used to think this was some kind of hierarchical, patriarchal bull shit but I now see that what is going on is that the mentor is finding out how commited to the learning the apprentice is. If the apprentice says fuck this shit you asshole, then so be it. This is when the apprentice learns to pay attention, follow instructions, drop the preconcieved notions and the ego, and open up to the learning. That’s all important stuff that really gets in the way if it doesn’t happen.
My mentors find out if the apprentice is ready to learn, and if not that’s fine. Come back when you are, or not. They have no attachments to my process.

What has happened to me in the past is that I get my ego stroked by having students who learn from me so I drop what I am doing and spend my time trying to teach them everything I know. Then just about the time when the student could actually do the work on their own and really help me in return, they decide it’s time to move on to the next place. And I feel ripped off. I don’t take that on anymore. .

There are benefits to the nomadic life and there are benefits to the settled life. The problems come when people feel entitled to it all without doing what it takes. A nomadic life requires some sacrifices in comfort, possesions etc. and it rewards us with freedom from many attachments that hold us back. It opens us up to a universal flow.
A settled life requires a commitment and investment in staying in one place and doing what needs to be done in caring for that place and developing a deeper relationship It has it’s rewards as well.
Blending these two ways of being can be very tricky. It often requires an investment of time on the part of travellers and a willingness to tune into what is happening in a community. The "permanent " dwellers in the community have made that investment and consequently formed attachments to outcomes.

I’m just rambling here, jumping from one thing that pops into my head to another. Hope there’s something useful in all that.

Orion-
As always, I love the longhouses. Of course, the appropriateness of shelter design varies with location; here on the PacNW waters, lots of native folks built amazing cedar plank longhouses. The Iroquois did Elm bark-covered ones. The Norse I believe often thatched theirs, as in your photo.

I do think some rotational, or organically determined way of finding land stewards and balancing nomadic community make sense.

Billy/Heyvictor-

Expectations have to be clear and understood both ways. So many times I have seen situations where the expectations have been unclear or where the arrangement was begun with one expectation and when that changed the awkwardness set in. Hard feelings love to grow in those situations.

I agree with this; in fact, I think the lack of this social technology/cultural tradition (or rather, the loss of it) has done more to make us a weakened people with low survival odds than anything else. We run into it over and over as we struggle to find our way back to the land and tribe/village/family. One way or another we need to learn new traditions or relearn old ones. Hence my boosting for Open Space technology, teamworks skills, clarity and so on. Otherwise the pressure to remain nuclear family units, however neighborly, I think will limit all our efforts to really thrive as we did of old.

What I have found is that the people often have little understanding of the concept of investing in the learning process and commitment. I have been mentored by people who do not "teach". If I want to learn about something, a commitment is required. I must be willing to invest in the learning process. This is similar to an apprenticeship. An apprentice might start out doing all the shit work and it might seem to be work that doesn't even have to do with what they are apprenticing for.

Exactly. So much of this Rewilding Haven idea sounds “care-free”, almost like an escape, except really, if indeed an escape route, it must lead to a rock solid foundation of clear intentions, focused work, and caring for each other.

I did one of these WWOOF style things this past summer on a small vegetable farm (for sale at market and through a CSA). I had a lot of the frustrations you’ve described here. I was more or less brought in as another hand to work a 40 hour week to help keep the farm going. I didn’t resent the farmer or his assistant (who quickly became a friend) at all – they worked harder and longer hours than I did and weren’t by any means striking it rich (just barely getting by to be honest). I guess part of my main frustration wasn’t that I felt overworked or under-appreciated, but that we were working all this land all these hours and then we were just selling it away to others who could pay for it with money. It didn’t feel right. I wish we could have done the same thing for subsistence, but that wasn’t an option. Maybe we would have worked less, maybe less, I don’t know, but it would have at least been for supporting ourselves in a true sense rather than in obligation to the monetary economy.

Mostly what I long for is a way of life where I can put forth the creativity, passion, and effort to live, play, and work among others as we work to take care of our needs. But that longing is nothing new. I just hope I have the maturity to follow through on that desire and put in the hard work to make it happen.

I think one of the things I worry about is finding others who I trust and feel safe with and who want to follow a similar path and make a similar kind of commitment. Sometimes I worry I want there to be other “me’s” out there who want to do exactly the same things I want to do. Haha.

~wildeyes

Orion, awesome pictures! Is the first one a painting, or a photograph? (looks like a painting to me)!

I totally agree with this, especially if “freedom” includes “freedom from having to participate in the wage economy”. To me I see it not as a dichotomy between “nomad” and “homesteader”/“settler”, but between agriculture/gardening and hunter/gathering. Of course these distinctions aren’t black and white; there is plenty of overlap. But I think this better describes the difference between those who choose to work more in order to have more of the benefits of civilization, and those who want to minimize the trappings of civilization in order to be able to work less (much less).

As long as everyone is clear about their choices, and doesn’t expect others to adhere to what they expect of themselves (in terms of workload, especially), then I think communities of people with mixed goals could potentially work out just fine.

This is precisely why I feel the need to really clarify the issues of lifestyles, workloads, etc; and why I cringe whenever I hear people talk about “paying your dues” or the virtues of hard work in general. I don’t have a problem with working hard, but I do have a problem in the expectations many have that survival (and happiness) necessarily requires the insane amount of “work” that people consider to be normal (up to and beyond half of one’s waking hours, and most of one’s waking hours if housework & child care is included on top of a full-time job).

Of course, it all totally depends upon what one considers to be “work”. One person may consider weeding to be a chore, while another may enjoy it as a relaxing hobby (although I’ve found it to be incredibly hard on the body - I am ALWAYS sore the next day, if I worked hard for a couple hours). The key is whether or not the work is freely chosen, or if it is an obligation that one has to do, but doesn’t want to.

If a person freely wants to teach something because they enjoy it, then should they “charge” others for it (in labor or money)? Depending on how much $$ they need to survive (how plugged in they are to the capitalist economy), they may have to. But if community meets their needs the same as everyone else’s, and if they desire to teach, then why should they require those being taught to pay? Why couldn’t those students just contribute to the community in other ways, freely given?

Of course, everyone who enters into a social agreement should fully understand the terms, and the basis for everyone’s terms. In other words, if someone chooses to have a house and bills to pay, and therefore need to charge for teaching (for example), as long as the students understand this and freely agree to that, all is well. I personally would not choose to pay more in this situation, if there another teacher existed who did not have those bills and therefore did not need to charge (or charged less).

I have spent years learning how to train horses and teach others to ride, and I would much prefer not that they students not have to pay me at all. The whole “payment” thing has always felt awkward and wrong to me, and especially when it is for something that I enjoy (I desire to teach others these skills when I feel that it would help them). But if I have bills to pay, then I have no choice but to charge.

I would much prefer to live in a community of people who freely give to others, without expecting payment. Where those who respect what they are given give back in other ways; where everyone spends their days helping each other, in whatever way they feel like doing (rather than people dictating to others what they need to do to contribute).

AHA! :o I think I’ve found it, the crux of my whole rambling argument: The difference between people contributing to the community in ways that they themselves choose (doing what they would like to do), and people contributing in ways that are chosen for them (imposed on them in the form of requirements, expectations, etc). Others may choose the latter, but I would want to live in a community of the former.

I also wanted to mention that I have no desire to live an agrarian lifestyle, spending large amounts of time weeding and maintaining a farm. I’m much more interested in foraging-type horticulture, not only because it seems so much less invasive and controlling of the land (enhancing nature rather than subduing it and converting it for human purposes), but also because I have no desire to spend long hours laboring each day.

I’ve read that agriculture requires more caloric input (in the form of work) for the same amount of food as foraging does, and it seems that the experiences of every small farmer backs this up. It seems that even homesteaders living very simplified lifestyles still have to work (relatively) long hours to survive, from what I’ve heard them say. Of course hunting and foraging may take just as many hours, if one includes walking time, but that just seems so much more enjoyable to me (and easier on the body)! Maybe it’s just personal preference.

Anyway, I’m bringing this up because it relates to an idea I have, that I’d like to share (tell me what you think). I’ve been thinking that I would really like to establish a rewilding haven by buying a (relatively small) chunk of land adjacent to public land, where people could live a pretty much hunter-gatherer lifestyle but with a more or less permanent base camp. That way the need for a larger landbase would be satisfied, while satisfying legal requirements that restrict living on public land. And we could include neighboring private land in our landbase as well, as long as the owners of the land didn’t live or do anything on it (we certainly wouldn’t be negatively impacting it!)

Because we’d be living an uncivilized lifestyle, we’d have very little need for money except to pay property taxes & mortgage (my lender would probably be my grandma ;D, so no getting robbed blind by a bank). The only main difficulty, for me, would be what if my husband doesn’t want to live like that? He’s very much the “lone mountain man” type, who doesn’t like living closely with others (he doesn’t even like living closely with me some of the time! ;)) But honestly, if it came down to it, I would still choose this life regardless (he’d just have to deal with it or not live with me, I guess). There’s only so much I’d be willing to give up for another person!

It is an interesting question… just where is the line between hunter/gatherer/permaculturist and “evil farmer”? I think if we’re breaking thinks down along the lines of “fun” vs. “not fun” then there’s bound to be a pretty good range of opinions. For instance: I love raising animals, planting trees and herbs, and finding suitable wildflowers to surround my house with. All of these are in the “totally fun” category for me. On the other hand, I don’t like “row vegetables” because of all the work.

I would hope that if everyone was truly honest with themselves, no one would find fields of monoculture crops “fun”. If it’s then possible to let people follow their hearts, there would be a great range of non-destructive possibilities. It would also make for a great trade relationship between the homesteaders and the nomads, because some crafts and products (like felting, weaving, and cheese-making) are easier to do if you can keep all your “stuff” around you and not always be moving. At the same time, nomads have things that the villages do not. Maybe they bring a medicinal plant that doesn’t grow in that region; or maybe news and stories… what about the idea of the traveling bard? They used to be quite popular.

I can envision a culture in which everyone gets to do what they love, and everyone has something essential to contribute… and if you have stories to trade, I’ll have some lovely goat cheese and dried apples to give you.

I suppose I should talk to my brother first, but I’ve been wanting to open TrollSplinter Land up to folks to come through and visit and stick around as long as things are working out. The idea of Open Space seems pretty rad. I’m moving out there in April to start building a timber framed, wattle and daub house. Good company would be incredibly welcome.

Yes, at least for now. The plan was to head down towards the Stockport area at some point, but… for family reasons, I think we’re more likely to head down towards Louisville.

Emily/Dream of Stars was in Cinci, but I haven’t heard from her in a while and unfortunately, I don’t know any other rewilders in the area. Though, there’s certainly some folk doing some pretty interesting things. I started an Ohio resource thread here. Dunno if you find anything new, but you might find it worth a look. (Although, I think I need to update it)

I gotta say, I’m excited about the idea of having Rewilding Havens, even if they only help us through the transition period then disappear.

[quote=“Ink, post:34, topic:1142”][quote author=bereal link=topic=1206.msg13177#msg13177 date=1225624897]
I also wanted to mention that I have no desire to live an agrarian lifestyle, spending large amounts of time weeding and maintaining a farm. I’m much more interested in foraging-type horticulture, not only because it seems so much less invasive and controlling of the land (enhancing nature rather than subduing it and converting it for human purposes), but also because I have no desire to spend long hours laboring each day.
[/quote]

It is an interesting question… just where is the line between hunter/gatherer/permaculturist and “evil farmer”?[/quote]

Yeah, as much as I enjoy gardening and taking care of plants, I don’t have much yearning for an agrarian life either. Part of that is I really disagree with annual tilling & monocropping, that doesn’t increase life, it pretty clearly diminishes it. In fact, that’s pretty much the line I draw, does it diminish life the area or increase it?

Quote from Wildeyes:

"I think one of the things I worry about is finding others who I trust and feel safe with and who want to follow a similar path and make a similar kind of commitment. Sometimes I worry I want there to be other "me's" out there who want to do exactly the same things I want to do. Haha."

In my youth I was very idealistic and dreamed of getting back to nature, living on the land in a rustic pioneer way, in a commune with all of my friends. I bought 13 acres of remote land in Southern Colorado with a small “canyon” running through it and a beautiful view of the La Platta Mountains to the north. I made my own 20’ Tipi habitat, an adobe sweat lodge and cool dip pool, ect. I soon realized that my dream of creating this commune with all of my friends was unrealistic and would not happen. All of my friends had their own plans and dreams for their future and it wasn’t their dream to live in a commune on my 13 acres. Most of them were too busy with their own lives to even make the 75 mile round trip to visit my “Haven” that I wanted so much to share with them. So I sort of wrote my friends off, and lived like a lone hermit on my land with my 2 dogs for companionship, keeping busy with building projects during the day, and a jug of cheap wine or six pack of beer everynight around the fire to ease the loneliness.

[center][/center]

[center]http://www.pullingforwildflowers.org/threshold-dream.htm[/center]

In the summer of 1978 I posted this sign on the bulletin board in a natural food Co-op in Durango, hoping to attract some settlers to homestead with me on my land. Pretty idealistic and dreamy… huh?

Now, if I were to open my small present day homestead as a Rewilding Haven to hunter/gatherer nomads I would be very concerned about safety, vulnerability, and commonality with the Nomads who would stop by and set up camp for awhile. If they are camped in close proximity to the house, it would be natural to invite them into your house to visit and share a meal, but if you do not know them or their true intentions, you are very vulnerable if they are deceptive and have evil intentions. When word got around of our hospitality, it is likely that “Low Life” would be attracted to the prospect of getting something for nothing at “The Haven”. I guess there is more safety in numbers and the larger the family on the Haven the safer. Now I live the life of a hermit with 2 dogs and a cat as companions… and a loaded shotgun (and a home alarm system) for security.

I think that there is an unrealistic “Fairy Tale Romanticism” in our modern day perspecitive and beliefs about a wilder, less civilized world. In the US, we have lived in a period of relative law and order, where it is possible to live safely and securely in a solitary house on a farm in the countryside. It is hard to imagine the brutal reality of living in a world without the safety and security of Law and Order. An example of that reality happened in 1994 with the slaughter of 1,000,000 Rwandans within a 100 day period, by their fellow countrymen. During the “Dark Ages” a lone farmer & family living in the countryside was likely to be slaughtered and their house and farm burned to the ground. The peasant farmers had to live within a walled fortress city ruled by a wealthy landlord who protected them with his private Army, in turn for their labor in his fields." A sort if medieval WOOF - ha! In the present day civilized world of Law and Order we are able to live in relative safety. After the fall of civiization, I believe that humans will resort to inhumane barbarism that makes the animal kingdom seem more humane than humans… but this is WAY off the topic of rewilding havens.

Bereal wrote:

"Orion, awesome pictures! Is the first one a painting, or a photograph? (looks like a painting to me)!"

The longhouse image also looks to me like a painting. I did a google image search for longhouse and this is one of the first that appeared. I like to use Imagery to help convey ideas and stimulate the imagination.

Bereal wrote:

AHA! :o I think I've found it... The difference between people contributing to the community in ways that they themselves choose (doing what they would like to do), and people contributing in ways that are chosen for them (imposed on them in the form of requirements, expectations, etc). Others may choose the latter, but I would want to live in a community of the former.

I would also like to live in a community where I choose how I can best contribute. That would be ideal. yet we know that the ideal is often not the norm. I am told by “coyotes camp” about the “Hoop Law” of the Native Americans which includes

[ul][li]Carry your own weight[/li]
[li]Come bearing gifts[/li][/ul]

I understand “come bearing gifts” as meaning it needs to be as much (or more) about giving, rather than taking or recieving. There would be alot of not-so-pleasant, dirty work (like waste/sewage disposal) that no one would really care to do. This work would need to be shared by everyone in the community. Those who only contributed as they pleased without sharing in the dirty work would create conflict. If we willingly do our share of the dirty work as requiered, then it is not being imposed upon us. When we avoid doing our share, then it will probably be imposed upon us if we wish to stay in the community. So it seems to me that there will always be some degree of requirements and expectations of the members of a successful harmonious community.

Such security is a valid concern. I think a great, tribal way to handle this might be some sort of recommendation system, by which I mean people who care for havens would only let nomads stay if they came recommended by another known caretaker from another haven. In this way, we could set up a sort of monitoring network. If someone has a habit of causing trouble in one place, his or her reputation might follow them to other places.

It would also depend on the popularity of the Haven. With enough people there any one who dared to do anything unscrupulous would be…encouraged to reevaluate their lives by the other guests in short order. The deal danger would come in from Havens where only a few visit and the locals become out numbered by the guests. Otherwise I suspect that everyone here knows how to deal with people who do harm to their hosts, and I would venture other re-wilders will too. In nature a symbiot is encouraged, but a parasite is eliminated. As a movement I think we’ve grow-up a bit past helpless idealism. Its made us practical and hard, which can be beneficial. I hope it hasn’t left us unable to see possibility in the infidel.

[quote=“orion, post:37, topic:1142”]Quote from Wildeyes:

In my youth I was very idealistic and dreamed of getting back to nature, living on the land in a rustic pioneer way, in a commune with all of my friends. I bought 13 acres of remote land in Southern Colorado with a small “canyon” running through it and a beautiful view of the La Platta Mountains to the north. I made my own 20’ Tipi habitat, an adobe sweat lodge and cool dip pool, ect. I soon realized that my dream of creating this commune with all of my friends was unrealistic and would not happen. All of my friends had their own plans and dreams for their future and it wasn’t their dream to live in a commune on my 13 acres. Most of them were too busy with their own lives to even make the 75 mile round trip to visit my “Haven” that I wanted so much to share with them. So I sort of wrote my friends off, and lived like a lone hermit on my land with my 2 dogs for companionship, keeping busy with building projects during the day, and a jug of cheap wine or six pack of beer everynight around the fire to ease the loneliness.

[center][/center]

[center]http://www.pullingforwildflowers.org/threshold-dream.htm[/center]

In the summer of 1978 I posted this sign on the bulletin board in a natural food Co-op in Durango, hoping to attract some settlers to homestead with me on my land. Pretty idealistic and dreamy… huh?[/quote]

Wow, I see so much of myself in your story.

In the US, we have lived in a period of relative law and order, where it is possible to live safely and securely in a solitary house on a farm in the countryside. It is hard to imagine the brutal reality of living in a world without the safety and security of Law and Order.

I find it interesting that you say this. I personally feel totally unsecure in this modern world, with the government/corporation’s dream of an all-seeing eye more realized than ever before. I don’t feel afraid of other ordinary people (strangers), but I do feel nervous when I see a cop (and feel relief when they can no longer see me).

Here on Salt Spring (a relatively small, rural community to be sure), we have a local tradition of picking up hitchhickers (passing them by is considered impolite), and I do this whenever I can (as a lone woman in a car, I pick up men and have never felt unsafe). No one here locks their doors, many don’t lock their cars in town, and some even leave their keys in the ignition (while their cars are unlocked, of course). In the middle of town! It’s sort of a local joke, but it makes the point that many here reject the culture of fear (fearing our fellow humans) that the dominant culture tries to promote. And crime on the island hardly exists, so while some do take advantage (a few petty theft crimes happen), this trust is hardly misplaced.

Of course, any community needs to protect each member’s safety and well-being, but I think that happens much better through social technologies and a culture of trust and openness (where everyone feels free and supported to speak up whenever they don’t feel comfortable, for example), than it does through “law and order” (the ever-present threat of violence provided by the state). Any women who works on domestic violence will attest to the fact that the police do a miserable job of protecting women from violence (and actually often commit the violence) - while any look at the riot cops at a non-violent protest shows how well the police do the job of protecting the interests of those in power.

I hope I haven’t diverged too far off topic, but I also wanted to say that I agree that we need to be very concerned with our communities safety during and after the collapse. But defending the community from harm stands as a very different issue from internal security, which would be solved by a variety of social technologies.

On a different note, I think I have somewhat of a different idea of the nature of rewilding havens than others - although I like the idea of having as many types of rewilding havens as possible. What I have been thinking of - what I would personally want to create - doesn’t consist of a sort of travelers’ rest stop provided by a “host”, but instead of creating a true rewilding community, where people could join and leave according to where their life takes them. In this situation, a “host” wouldn’t exist - there would only exist the community.

I feel that the tricky part comes with the issue of land ownership. Just when I think I fully understand the evilness of “private property”, I find yet another negative thing about it. In this case, it seriously complicates the whole dynamic of rewilding havens. The system requires regular payments (similar to a stickup by a highway robber, I feel) by land owners, in the form of taxes, insurance, and mortgage, which begs the question of how the community would pay for this?

And in general, the different status of “landowner” and “visitor” could create strange dynamics among members of the community, such as feelings of entitlement, issues of respect of the land, etc. Although I think the community could easily eliminate the problem of freeloaders, abusive members, etc by having clear guidelines for acceptable behavior, and requiring those who violate those guidelines to leave.

I feel that because some people have a much more fortunate financial situation than others (due to the unequal nature of civilization), providing land exists as one of many ways to contribute to the community, and while it is an essential contribution, it should not grant someone special status (except as a founding member of the community, helping to create its ideals and guidelines).

I think the more that the idea of “ownership” of the land is minimized, the healthier and less civilized the community will become. I know that if I bought land for a rewilding haven, I would not in any way want that to affect my relationships with the other members of the community. I especially wouldn’t want to become “above” others in a hierarchical sense, with my land ownership granting me special power to dictate things to the rest of the community (the definition of a dictator, I think). I also would not feel comfortable living in a community where that were the case. How this would be avoided seems a bit complicated, though. Private property rearing its ugly head again - I would love nothing more than to cut it off ;).

Jessica

I don’t feel particularly secure in the modern world either. Cops do tend to make me a little anxious, but then so do a lot of folk. Probably related to getting the shit beat out of me so many times in school. Funny how that happens.

heyvictor,

I've bought two pieces of land in my life. Both came to us through very hard work and commitment. I never had those kind of resources handed to me on a platter. I have had people express that I had certain luxuries because I had land and a home. My response is that it was a concious decision to make that commitment that could be made by anybody if it was possible for me. The same goes for the "free" life of the nomad. It requires a commitment to what that life demands.

I think you have made a good point here, and those are wise words.

I have an experience to share.

I’m 34 years old now, but since I turned 18 I have made concious choices to try and remain debt free. As it stands right now, I am debt free for the most part. This is after my family and I just moved into our cordwood house that we built on 32 acres. I feel fortunate and grateful.

On occasion, throughout the past 16 years, I have tried to help various family members and friends achieve a debt free lifestyle. On almost every occasion they point at a circumstance that I have created for myself and tell me how lucky I was to have that opportunity, and that particular stroke of luck was the reason for my success. What they forget is the opportunity came from a concious choice and hard work. Needless to say none of them achieved a debt free lifestyle.

Also, there have been times throughout the past 16 years where I’ve had a little bit of money saved up. As a result I have loaned it out interest free to various family members and friends that needed it, and on almost every occasion I’ve had to beg for my money back, and sometimes never getting it back. Somehow they felt that since I had money saved up, and was better off financially, they were entitled to the money I had loaned them interest free. Looking back, this says a lot about how they valued our relationship.

I do need to mention one occasion where I didn’t have to ask for any kind of payment for the money I loaned out. My Grandpa and Grandma borrowed money from me when they were in their early sixties. They were the least well off health wise and financially than anyone I have loaned money out to. Despite those two facts, I never had to ask them for any kind of payment. I find it interesting they were the only people that I ever loaned money out to that lived through The Great Depression.

Take care,

Curt

Re-wilding havens seems like a really interesting idea. I like what Pulling for Wildflowers is doing. And Willem-- I just discovered your Mythic Cartography website, and am busy back-reading everything (good job!). You bring up some good points about invisible social technologies, like “accord”, that we have lost in our modern society, about reciprocity, responsibility, clarity, trusting agreements.

I own land in a wetland-spring area in the Mojave Desert, that would make a good stop in spring and fall for hunter-gatherers, with cattail roots to dig in the marsh, mesquite beans to harvest in the fall, and I have been experimenting with native grass seed collecting as well in the area, such as Indian rice grass, Desert needlegrass, and weedy brome, to grind the seeds. There are a bunch of awesome medicinal desert shrubs here, and very importantly, you can drink the water right out of the spring without filtering.

But I too share concerns about having people I don’t know come to this place that I worked very hard to get, spent decades finding, and feel lucky to have (although the sacrifices for living out here are often not realized by those in the city). We have a locked gate because there are crazy people on the highway that have gladly in the past driven in to shoot all the quail, off-road-race over the desert, and steal. But even more disturbing are the friends and aquaintances that we have invited over, that overstayed there welcome. One woman was a wildlife photographer, who began to think we were her private bed-and-breakfast. We finally had to kick her out. Maybe that is more a problem with “domesticated folk,” I don’t know.

So I like the idea of getting people aware of limits and responsibility, and recommendations so that only trusty wild people would come.

I just finished reading Elizabeth Marshall Thomas’ The Old Way, where she talks of Bushmen families in the 1950s Kalahari Desert. Certain family linaeges had ‘noresi’ or traditional springs and hunting/gathering territories that they were sort of the caretakers of. Other families had to ask their permission before camping and partaking of the water and wild foods around, when they came visiting from their own noresi. And almost always they were known to the noresi-owners by relational ties or gift exchange ties or some other network where they were vouched for and could be trusted. Strangers were not trusted, and brought up fear actually.

I really like the idea of a nomadic lifestyle, as I have lived in a tent in my past. But I also have gotten to know this piece of land deeply now and have some developing animistic-spiritual connections with it. Seems like rewilding our psychology would help a lot with integrating private land-owners and nomads.

Just my two cents…

Everybody has kept saying so much insightful stuff, that I don’t know if I can respond person by person. But keep it coming! I like feeling overwhelmed with good stuff.

Michael Green, at his Afterculture visionary art installation, has a quote from the druidic tradition-

I honor your path. I drink from your well. I bring an unprotected heart to our meeting place. I hold no cherished outcome. I will not negotiate by withholding. I am not subject to disappoinment.

Every time I read that my neck hairs stand on end and life-affirming energies surge through my veins. I hear a profoundly grounded and universal message in that; including the Bushman ethic, that lizard mentioned.

What does it mean to come without feeling entitlement, to “come bearing gifts”, and perhaps even along with “carry your own weight”, to also help “carry THE weight”. The sacred weight of caring for the land and each other.

How do we form that adoptive family of collaborating cousins, brothers, sisters, aunts and uncles? Perhaps we come with a small packet of sacred herb in our hand, and at the gate of the land of those we wish to make relatives, we say "I offer these herbs to you. They carry these words-

I yearn to nurture and receive nurturing from you and your land.
I fear that you will ask too much of me, and I set that fear aside.
I fear that I will not ask what I need of you, and I set that fear aside.
I commit to listening for, and when I can, acting on both yours and the Land’s calls for help.
I commit to asking for help when I need it.
With sadness and joy I know that a long road awaits us, of building more and more
what we can ask of each other, and what we can give each other
I know the time will come when I cannot help you when you need it,
and when I will not ask for help, when I need it
I weep and celebrate our own humanity in this
and know that then we may need to part ways for a while
before we come back together
and build our bonds even stronger."

I mean what else can simple human beings do? Ex-slaves, even, still terrified of the whips of civilization. Piece by piece, we put lives worth living back together. Scared to hurt and to feel hurt, we do the best we can.