Fermented Food

Regenerative Subsistence Flora Food & Medicine
#38

My mother used to make vinegars quite a bit, although I never have.

As far as I know, yeasts don’t like sunlight very much, and should have some way of letting out the co2, or your bottles will probably explode between the alcohol and vinegar stage if they can’t breathe. You could use brewers yeast I suppose, or just let it catch wild yeast in the air that want some nummy sugars. Adding yeast at the beginning might help keep bacteria in check, as the two often compete for sugar (unless they’re in symbiosis already.) Smelling it and a light taste on the finger will reveal if its vinegar or something else that you wouldn’t want in your body. Boiling your bottles or jars for a for a few minutes will take care of anything that may be there before the fact.

Something I didn’t know about it till I looked up that wikipedia link is that vinegar is essentially acetic acid, which is used in concentrate as a photographic stop bath. I caught a whiff of a super-concetrate when I used to have a dark room and it gave my whole respiratory tract a nice chemical burn. Ahh, I don’t my darkroom one bit.

#39

When I was about 12 my friends and I used to get grape juice concentrate and add yeast and sugar, put a baloon on top of the bottle instead of a lid and make our own wine so we could have our own booze instead of trying to get someone to boot for us. Sometimes it would turn to vinegar. I always thought it was too much yeast that did that but I’m not sure really.

We also had some old apple trees that produced these green cooking apples when I was a kid. In the fall there would be big piles of them all over and I was supposed to clean them up. They would often smell real vinegary.

#40

A friend of mine was taught how to make his own wine from grape juice by a high-school teacher. Apparently he taught some of the class how so they do it right and not poison themselves when they found out on their own ‘on the streets.’

Lots of critters love fermented fruits. :slight_smile: Every so often I see a news story of a cow, goat or some wild turkeys dipping into the ‘extra ripe stuff’ and having themselves a bit of a bender. My family has plenty of stories passed down on the subject, as well, but they’re known for some tightly spun yarns. :slight_smile: We have a few apple trees scattered about, and I may look into wild-fermenting some cider this autumn, if we’re still here.

#41

"Every so often I see a news story of a cow, goat or some wild turkeys dipping into the ‘extra ripe stuff’ and having themselves a bit of a bender. "

Oh yeah konscii. One year there was my family and two other families that went to the Yakima Valley to do farm work for the summer. We set up a camp with a canning and drying scene in a canyon just north of there to live. Some of us would go to work in the orchards each day and some would stay in camp to look after the kids and do the canning and drying.

We found out about a 50 acre pear orchard that was not going to be harvested because it got hailed on and the fruit had marks all over it from the hail stones. We picked a pick up truck full and got them all cut and layed out on our drying racks. (we had a big drying set up there.)

A couple of days later we discovered that a huge swarm of yellow jackets had gorged themselves on our pears and the only thing left was the skins. The yellow jackets were so drunk on the sugar that we just scraped them off the racks with a stick and they layed drunk in a heap on the ground.

PS. Yes the white vinegar you buy in the store is 5% acetic acid. The fixer used in a darkroom is a fair bit stronger but it’s acetic acid as well. I used to spend a lot of time in darkrooms.

#42

The conversion of sugary water to wine is driven by yeast, but the conversion of wine to vinegar is actually bacteriological.

In my unintentional case, I had a couple large gallon bottles of wine (elderberry, actually) and they had collected a good amount of sediment. So I racked the wine into smaller bottles. I think I didn’t clean the smaller bottles well enough because some turned to vinegar while others stayed nicely wine.

Strangely, the actual wine bottles seemed to fare OK, none of them soured, but the ones I put into screw top glass juice bottles soured.

It wasn’t really great vinegar, though. Had an off taste I didn’t care for. Probably because it was just a random bacteria that did it. In the homebrew store you can get a vinegar culture to intentionally add to wine. I’ve read that just adding a shot of regular vinegar works to kick off the process also.

#43

So if I wanted to try making apple cider vinegar, I could add yeast to apple juice, let it turn into cider (balloon method maybe? I’ve heard of that one before for wine…), and then either let it turn into vinegar with time or add some culture?

How much yeast are we talking about for, say, a half gallon of apple juice?

#44

sure, balloon method would work fine.

If I were trying to make apple cider vinegar in the cheapest, simplest way possible here is how I would do it:

  1. get your half gallon of apple juice at room temperature (make sure it is pure apple juice, some of the storebought stuff has preservatives and things in it that will kill yeast…)
  2. put in maybe half a teaspoon of bread yeast, shake, and cover the bottle neck with a ballon (side note: lots of different kinds of yeasts, the main factors are the residual tastes they confer, how vigorous they are, and what percentage alcohol they can reach. Since you’re making vinegar, the residual taste will be a non-issue, and since you don’t need more than 5-7% alcohol a bread yeast will be active enough and get you to the alcohol percentage you want. If you wanted to get fancy you could get a $1 pack of champagne or cider yeast from a homebrew store, but it shouldn’t matter much for this use…)
  3. let the CO2 out of the balloon once in a while. When it stops filling (shouldn’t take more than a week at room temperature) then add a good dollop of apple cider vinegar. The bacteria in the vinegar should kick start the souring process in your new apple cider and that seems a lot safer than depending on whatever bacteria happen to be in the air right then.
  4. taste it after a week or so

Keep in mind that my vinegar has always been accidental, but the above should work to make it on purpose!

(BTW. one of my favorite books is “Wild Fermentation” and it goes into great detail on all sorts of fermentations, including some killer kimchi recipes. http://www.amazon.com/Wild-Fermentation-Flavor-Nutrition-Live-Culture/dp/1931498237/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1207724067&sr=8-1)

#45

the bacteria that creates vinegar are different than the yeasts that create alcohol, but the base processes are about the same.

if you want to make cider vinegar, you can start w/ apple juice or cider, but, and I stress this from experience, it’s very important that you source it correctly. the best is stuff you pressed yourself, or was pressed by someone you know, be very wary of store bought juice and cider, not only are they pastuerized, but they have often had preservatives added that prevent proper fermentation.

if you can get ahold of some non-pastuerized vinegar, that makes an excellent starter culture to add to the juice/cider (preferably already fermented into wine). once you get your first batch going, make sure you save some for the next batch (ideally, you save any sediment that develops in addition to some of the vinegar). expect homemade vinegar to be more intense that what you’re used to.

[EDIT: clarified the opening statement, which implied that bacteria create alcohol. i plead temporary insanity]

#46
very wary of store bought juice and cider, not only are they pastuerized, but they have often had preservatives added that prevent proper fermentation.
I've tried adding some store-bought juice, and it hurt my ginger beer plant.. I still have it in intensive care. I've also had bad luck with honey slowing down fermentation to a crawl (although not killing it like store juice)
#47

me too, derek–some of my fermentation experiments have ended in a vinegary way. vinegar wants to happen, just give her a place to grow (like ignored wines, meads, beers. . .)

apple cider, left out, will turn to hard cider after maybe a week, although I guess the pasteurized kind might do something weird? eventually, if left out exposed to air long enough, it’ll turn to vinegar. You don’t need to add anything, you can wild-ferment from the air. Plenty of the yeasts who eat sugar and produce alcohol live in the air, so do the acetobacter bacteria who eat alcohol and make vinegar (acetic acid), and they go in succession, just like the grasslands into forests.

unwashed fruit skin provides a very rich source of yeast for any fermentation you might want to have happen. i’ve made vinegar from fruit peelings left out on the counter in a bowl of water. try it, see what happens!

konscii, sorry to hear about your ginger-beer plant. :’(

also, someone said something about honey slowing things down? real, raw honey should burst at the seams with yeast (thus, the ease of making mead!). but i’ve heard that most of the commercial honey you buy at the store comes from stuffing beehives full of high fructose corn syrup, which the poor deluded bees then process into some sad semblance of honey, without ever visiting a flower. :’( :’( :’(

#48
also, someone said something about honey slowing things down?
That was me.. It's talked about on my ginger beer plant group a bit, although they might be blowing it out of proportion. Pure honey is supposedly anti-microbal to an extent although I'm not sure how that would relate to fermentation. Everything I've brewed with honey has taken.. a while. That may be due to what you're talking about with the corn syrup.
Most micro-organisms do not grow in honey because of its low water activity of 0.6.
-wikipedia - honey
konscii, sorry to hear about your ginger-beer plant.
Thank you.. I think they'll be ok. The yeasts are being over-run by the bacteria, and need sugar stat. I think I've been over-feeding the bacteria and I'll have to be more careful about their resting solution. They've been soaking for a couple days now at about 70F and are starting to bubble again.

Are the bacteria that eat alcohol always in direct symbiosis with the yeasts? In other words, are they always traveling in ‘pairs.’ In my plant, they’re together as white grains…

#49

honey doesn’t ferment as quickly. you need to let it sit for much longer. and, yes, it is anti-microbial… and the better quality the honey (unpasteurized) the more anti-microbial it should be.

#50

honey has a number of antimicrobial qualities, but by far the biggest one is lack of water. mixing honey with water will (eventually) lead to fermentation. mixing honey with water and virtually any kind of fruit or trace vitamins/minerals will fairly quickly lead to fermentation.

#51

Wikipedia also mentions that one of honey’s anti-microbial properties results from it’s breaking down into hydrogen peroxide when diluted. It was talking about the topical use of honey as antiseptic and being diluted by body fluid, so I don’t know if diluting it a lot, as in mead making, overwhelms that reaction.

I was trying to figure out if honey sweetened beverages would be good as electrolyte replacement drinks. I haven’t sorted that out, but in my search I ran across a claim that kombucha has electolytes. Anyone know if that is true?

I got my Kombucha culture from a woman who teaches workshops on it. She went to the trouble of testing it with every sweetenter she could find and typed up the results. Her name is Gretchen Westlight and the handout says permission granted to share with credit, so here goes:

these were fermented for 12 days.
Taste comparison is to kombucha made with white sugar/evap cane juice

Sweetener Culture Appreance Beverage Description
Turbinado Thick, healthy Fairly normal tasting
Agave Syrup Thick, healthy Fizzy, a little sour
Sucanat Thick, healthy Fizzy, sour
Rapadura Thick, healthy Fizzy, sour
Brown sugar Medium, healthy Fizzy, sour
Light Corn Syrup Thick, healthy Watery,bitter,not much fermented
Maple Syrup Thin, weak Sour, not much fermented, fizzy
Xylitol Very thin, somewhat healthy Very mild, not much fermented, fizzy
Fructose Thin, “anemic” Not much fermented, tased like plain tea
Stevia Thin, moldly Didn’t risk tasting it
Splena Thin, moldly Didn’t risk tasting it
Barley Malt Thin, medium-dark Somewhat cloudy, sediment, SOUR
Brown rice syrup Thick, pale Cloudy, sour vinegary, lots of sediment
Honey Thin, weak Cloudy, lots of sediment
Blackstrap molasses Thick, dark and muddy YUCK! GAG!!!

When I was reading about honey I learned that white sugar is sucrose, which is fructose and glucose stuck togther. The sugar in honey is about 38% fructose, 30% glucose and 1% sucrose. Gretchen’s results with pure fructose would suggest that the kombucha organism doesn’t like plain fructose, so mabye that is part of why using honey was not as good as using sugar?

Sorry, if this is getting too detailed, I’ve just been thinking about this a lot in the last few days and was excited to find this thread.

My question tho, is: what was the original kombucha sweetener source? I really doubt it was processed sugar. Does anyone else make it with a sweetener source other than sugar?

#52
but i've heard that most of the commercial honey you buy at the store comes from stuffing beehives full of high fructose corn syrup, which the poor deluded bees then process into some sad semblance of honey, without ever visiting a flower.

Really, I hadn’t heard that. What do those labels on the honey jar mean when they say “Clover Honey” or “Orange Blossom Honey”? I’m imagining the beehives in a sealed, sterile room with lots of high fructose corn syrup and a small pot of clover. I feel cheated, but I suppose that’s par for the course in civilization.

#53
i've heard that most of the commercial honey you buy at the store comes from stuffing beehives full of high fructose corn syrup, which the poor deluded bees then process into some sad semblance of honey, without ever visiting a flower.

Most commercial beehives actually only do that on the off season. Their diet then basically consists of corn syrup and soy protein (like so many civilized people), as well as a hefty dose of antibiotics. During other times, they’re trucked around to pollinate crops for farmers. Basically, they’ve been turned into another cog in the industrial monocrop machine.

#54

The type of honey specified on the label is what is thought to be whatever formed the majority of the nectar. So “Clover Honey” was made from mostly clover nectar, “Orange Blossom Honey” from orange blossoms, etc…

But, really, it’s not like it’s tracked 100%, so it’s an educated, and probably more or less accurate guess. And as indendiary_dan says, the corn syrup is mostly just an off season practice.

Of course, and as always, when in doubt, find a reputable local source… [hint: if you can’t find anyone advertising it, check out local orchards, sometimes one of the groundsworkers will keep bees and maintain a small side business]

#55

I found the honey for my last batch of mead through a craigslist ad. I traded some emails from the guy, got his address and headed over there. The houses kept getting bigger and fancier. Finally I found the address and pulled up the driveway to a 12 (!!!) car garage with rooms above and the most colossal mansion ever. The guy was cleaning empty beehives in the front drive.

Turns out he was the personal chef for a senior VP at Microsoft and sold excess honey on the side. It was strange. The honey was great.

#56

[quote=“Miles, post:2, topic:169”]Hey Pennyscout, I’ve been wanting to share a really great ferment i’ve discovered called ‘Gundru’. It comes originally from nepal, and is unique in that all it requires are the greens of any plant in the brassica family. No salt,
no water, nothing but the greens and the living bacteria on them.
I took some rutabaga greens, let them wilt in the sun, then crushed them with a rolling pin to get the juices flowing. Then just cram them into a glass jar, mashing them in as hard as i can to get the juices out as i go. The idea is to get as much greens stuck in the jar as possible and so mashed in that they are submerged in their own green juice. After accomplishing this i let it sit in a warm room for three weeks with the lid on, after which they magically become pungent, tart, complex, enzyme filled delicious gundru. I love my sauerkraut but this is way better - less civilized. I’m making some now with feral kale i gathered - a bona fide wild ferment we’ll all be able to enjoy after the apocalypse![/quote]

Advice please?

I tried to make gundru and it started to mold after about 5 days. Can any fermentation experts out there tell me where I went wrong?

I combined 3 types of greens: turnip, kale, and mustard greens. (I did a little research to confirm that they all belonged to Brassicae.) I forgot the step of wilting them in the sun, I just crushed them all into a very very clean glass jar. (I washed them before mashing them; they were still wet with water.) I used a wooden spoon to smoosh them in and get the juice flowing. As I mashed them, I added sea salt (My line of thinking was, “Well if it works for sauerkraut, why not?”).

After they were all mashed, they filled about 1/3 of the jar that I was using. I figured that would be alright.

The jar I used has a clasp lid, not a screwtop. I put it on a shelf in my kitchen which gets light from the east. I wouldn’t say it’s a particularly warm spot… the window sill would have been warmer. So now, five days later, mold is growing on some of the leaves that are sticking out of the juice.

What’s going on here?

#57

I could be wrong, but I believe I’ve read at least once that with things like this in which the plant matter will sit for awhile, you shouldn’t wash them or wet them, as the wetness provides more chance for mold to grow.