Dealing with non-believers

Sorry to but in here…

I’ve been following this thread closely, trying to see where the difference between your perspectives lie and from what I have seen here, it appears to be a case of “yes, and…”

Yes, hunter-gatherers have luxuries and they also exert themselves physically to their limits. Not to the extent, nor the way that agriculturalists do.

The Molalla indians lived in the foothills of the Cascades. I have hiked up one mountain and it took me three hours to get up, 2 1/2 to get down. After 5 1/2 hours of hiking I was completely exhausted and sore. Now compared to my day-to-day urban lifestyle of sitting in front of a computer, getting my ass kicked after 5 1/2 hours of walking shows more how weak I have become than how hard hiking is. To the Molalla indians, who ate paleo diet and hiked the hills everyday, it probably felt more normal than ass-kicking. In that sense, they exerted themselves physically much more than I, but they were in better shape, not to mention they walk in a more efficient way (the fox walk), than I (city shuffle).

I have tanned one hide, and it was a pain in the ass! Regardless of tools/etc, it takes a lot of work, a lot of physical exertion. I think the key here is that our bodies are designed for higher levels of discomfort and exertion than civilized people experience.

Now, if you were in a field with a digging stick for 8-12 hours a day 7 days a week, you’d know how fucked up early agriculturalists were. If you compounded that extreme exertion with a crappy diet (grains) that cause all kinds of diseases and physical problems, the work would feel even worse.

Because of oil, the statistics of how much someone works or even what work, or hard work means, has changed quite a bit. When I spend all day on a computer at work, I consider that “hard work,” though I haven’t done anything physically demanding, but psychologically demanding. If I were to physically exert myself more than I do now, it would be uncomfortable at first, but eventually I’d get over it.

I think Billy has expanded his comfort zones (living in -30 tipi) further than most here, or most civilized people in general. Given the option of living in a -30 tipi or living in a nice heated cabin, I know what most people will gravitate towards; ease of comfort. Though, given a bioregion, humans are capable of finding comfort at extremes.

I think this all comes down to defining “hard” and what is or isn’t “comfortable.”

Hunting and gathering does require a lot of physical exertion. Hiking all day through the hills, stalking animals to hunt (I don’t know if you’ve ever tried to hold a stalking position for more than 30 seconds, but it’s extremely difficult), stretching hides, etc. Not as much exertion as agriculturalists who spend 8-12 hours a day hunched over with a digging stick, but it does take a hell of a lot more physical exertion than most urban civilized people have ever experienced in their entire lives, aside from “professional athletes.”

Now, does that make the lifestyle more “hard?” I think it depends on how you see hard. Definitely living as a hunter-gatherer is much much more uncomfortable than living in americanized, urban civilization. It just comes down to your level of comfort and how far can you expand it? Indigenous peoples have rites of passage to expand peoples comfort zones so they feel more comfortable in colder, wetter, hotter, hungrier times.

From where I live right now, in a climate controlled room with my belly full of bacon and eggs that I bought at the grocery store with money I made from my job where I sit at a computer and do database work and answer the phone, in a climate controlled room… I can’t really argue that the hunter-gatherer lifestyle requires a shit load more physical exertion and discomfort.

Many people think of these civilized comforts as the “luxuries” of civilization. Hunter-gatherers most suredly did not have the comfort of central heating and air-conditioning and sitting on their asses all day long in such a place. Now, does that mean they lived “harder” lives? I don’t think so, because I think that physical exertion is healthy and normal. I think civilized people are lazy and sissies. I hate the cold. I hate bugs. I hate being dirty. These are all things that hunter-gatherers are more comfortable with because they have to be. And that’s the normal state of humans.

Hunter-gatherers worked less and exert themselves less than slaves with digging sticks. You can hardly say the same about modern urban people, who do little physical exertion than changing the channel on their tv in their climate controlled McMansion.

I definitely see the point that Billy is making, that hunter-gatherers had much wider ranges of comfort than (urbanized) civilized people, and that they physically exerted themselves a lot more. I personally don’t see that as a “harder” life, just a normal one. Though if you were to throw me out in the cold, I may change my mind! :wink:

This blog entry of Davids is one of the best commentaries on this:

http://www.edgeofgrace.net/2006/12/28/i-hate-nature/

A couple of questions come to mind when reading that blog entry:

Who the hel sleeps on the cold ground?
Was there no bug protection (spray, oil, etc.)?

It sounds like the main problem this guy had was just a lack of proper housing and personal care items. I don’t know how that school works exactly, but I would think one of the big things they’d teach is keeping yourself warm, which includes insulating oneself from the ground while sleeping. Sounds a lot like he had problems and didn’t do anything to remedy them. Ideas of asceticism creeping in, I guess.

Yeah, that’s one of the points for sure. Sounds like swimming in deep purity without so much as a toe dipped in the shallow end.

That’s sort of what I see here. What a lot of hunter-gatherers found comfort in, most modern people have never had to experience before. Even though most hunter-gatherers weren’t insanely “pure” in that sense, they still had a much larger comfort zone.

People don’t realize just how crucial that is, I think, and they jump in the deep end without easing into it. You know, you can’t do 100 pull-ups if you’ve never worked out before. Similarly, we can’t just materialize ourselves into hunter-gatherers. We need to work out patiently, adding more weight each time, so-to-speak. But also, remembering to rest a large amount of the time.

I honestly don’t have a huge problem with asceticism altogether, taken to far, as a continuous ends in itself yes, but as a means, as a way to clear ones eyes and have another look, no. Asceticism to me plays a foundational role in all human cultures and societies. From the Buddha and Jesus to the shaman and vision quest. I think asceticism makes beginning rewilding a lot easier, it opens the door so to speak so one can take the first step.

I think the idea of asceticism as a means towards rewilding isn’t useful. If you’re used to warmth and comfort, and then go out into the wild where it is cold and hard, it’s really just going to drive you back into where it is warm and soft. I think too many of us are prone to being reactionary in situations such as these. If we show people warm, fuzzy, happy fun in wild living (and I stress show), we’ll have more success in getting the point across. I had some small success with this cooking a meal over a fire with my girlfriend, just hanging out and roasting food. I plan to try such a thing with a group of friends soon. Then, I’ll move on to roasting food I’ve gathered over a fire with them. Then maybe bring them with me foraging. Before they know it, they’ll be happy hunter-gatherers!

I wish I had some experience, real world, my own, most of all, but even books would be nice. As it is, I’m kind of just stuck on the sidelines here, watching this conversation avidly. I really liked Dan’s story of making a village with his class. I wish I had a teacher that cool. It also makes me relaize that I need to get out and experiment more, actually figure out what I am talking about instead of just relying on facts and figures.

However, I do agree on the asceticism point. We will never get people to believe in the leaving civilization thing if we show it to them as absolute sacrifice. As Quinn put it, we have to show them that they can get more of what they want, not less of what they don’t.

I alos think a major problem with applying the anthropological studies is the skill and ability gap that has been mentioned. It may be possible to live that easily, but you need proficiency in the skills and physical capabilities, proficiencies that I don’t have.

It may be possible to live that easily, but you need proficiency in the skills and physical capabilities, proficiencies that I don't have.

Luckily, becoming proficient isn’t nearly as hard as mastering a skill. Good luck, Matt, and remember to ask for plenty of help along the way. I know I do. :slight_smile:

Ascetism or Discipline? Maybe it’s natural to be loose, to move around fluidly. Zen Buddhism often teaches that enlightenment is the easiest thing in the world… it’s our original nature to be enlightened (or perhaps “wild”). Why is so hard then? Because we’ve spent so much time developing all this rigidity against it. It’s like we’ve kept our muscles so tense for so long that we’ve forgotten what it means to relax, play it cool, move around, let things go. Even when we begin to trust our bodies a bit, let them bounce to the beat and rhythms, all our training tells us “No! Stop!” And we tense back up. Yet with practice, the world opens up, welcoming us back in. Maybe it takes some discipline, a shift in values, but truly the path is a return home, to our deep-seated nature.

So… Rewilding – Hard? Easy? Perhaps both. Difficult to loosen up our defenses against all things wild. Yet easy because the wild energy is given freely and naturally without our effort, if only we can open ourselves up to it again.

Well let me speak from my experience. I wouldn’t have ever even came here if it weren’t for my asceticism. That asceticism driven by my cynicism of course… and boy did I go ascetic in about every way, straight edge, figured I’d end up a monk, etc. etc. What it did for me, it let me step back and see another view. Or did I already have that view and that coincided with my asceticism? I don’t know, all I know is I never wanted the ascetic life, I just figured I’d end up there. And if I never went there, where would I have ended up now? On drugs or alcohol 24/7 like many other of my peers and my family (in past), an indebted cog in the machine (like now), only with more massive debt to sit behind that nice car, with kids? What? To me, it takes a bit of asceticism, at least to keep the shackles off. But maybe I have a different view of asceticism, and as I said, I don’t hold it as the point itself, or the ends or goal, but a means. Of course I’d rather have the luxurious life, the luxurious hunter gatherer life, or I wouldn’t have come here, but I’d rather have a bit of asceticism for now than full in trappings to civilization, I just can’t do that.

Rewilding, easy or hard? Easier than you think, harder than you’d like.

Luxurious? How much luxury? How hard are you willing to work for it?

Bugs? No problem. 1001 plants to keep them away, and drink fragrant teas until mint is coming out of your pores. (Sounds gross, but smells better than far too many people anyway.)

Aestheticism? Not a good selling point. But useful in hardening yourself up.

One my big rewilding things is a lot of walking up mountains, an hour on the treadmill, weights as often as is safe, and as close to paleo as I can. Can’t afford to be out of breath when its time to move.

  • Benjamin Shender

Thanks for all those posts everyone. I’m happy to see what others are thinking about this discussion.

As far as ascetism goes… I make a big distinction between “going without” because it’s “virtuous” and “going without” because it ain’t worth the cost.

As I see it, when hunter-gatherers “went without” it was cuz it ain’t worth the cost.

As far as bugs go… Well, there are a lot of solutions, but that doesn’t mean you can walk up to Joe Random and convince him of that!

Now, if you pick your opportunities and demonstrate it to Joe Random in the park one day when bugs are everywhere and bothering the shit out of him… that’s a very different story, ain’t it?

In general, people are going to judge any claim they perceive to be extraordinary very harshly, unless you can positively demonstrate the claim to them. At least, that’s been my experience with most of humanity…

Just as a side note, what plants are good for bugs? I really hate conventional deet style bug repellant, but I don’t know what else to use.

Giuli started a good discussion on this here.

In general, there’s quite a lot that can be done and, as Ben says, there are just tons of plants that help out with this. For any given method, tho’, you should be forwarned that your mileage with any particular method or plant may vary somewhat. Partly by what’s available in your bioregion, so, be prepared to experiment a little.

For my part, I haven’t found anything short of greasing up my skin to keep mosquitos off, but other insects (including ticks) largely leave me alone and bees and I get along great!

Fragrant plants mostly. Mints are good choices. Citronella actually comes from a mint (point that out to Joe Random next time). The trick is you have to have the scent on all of your skin to repel them, otherwise they’ll just go to the unexposed parts. Eucalyptus is a good plant, peppermint, wintergreen, spearmint, lemon balm, etc. All good insect repellents and tasty teas. Drink enough of the tea (should be strong) and your skin will being to put off the scent itself. Your sweat will actually repel bugs! And in the mean time the tea has its own benefits.

  • Benjamin Shender

Ascetic virtue: I can dig it. I think it can expand your knowledge of self quite a bit. It helps you see what you can go without and define your limits. It helps you to develop qualities of patience and endurance that can prove useful in certain situations.

However, if you don’t set asceticism against the virtues of simply living in a world of experiences (in other words, if you do nothing else but abstain, like a monk), then it loses that value pretty quickly.

This comes from the perspective of someone who retreats to ascetic behavior (a “comfort-zone” of non-action) way more often than she would like to admit.

I went on a really fantastic date today for lunch, so today I’ve felt an increasingly strong pull away from the ascetic life. You know…? (Oh dear… sorry if that got too personal.)

in the last week, we (as in the people i live with) processed 2 deer in 2 days. this was actually a huge amount of work; first gutting, then skinning and butchering, then slicing up meat for hours to hang above the woodstove for drying, fleshing hides and preparing them for tanning, bashing skulls to get brains out. it was all very beautiful and connecting to the land we live on and the deers, but we were exhausted. where we live we dont have to pay rent - and we also dont have to pay for food because there are tons of dumpsters nearby. so in my life, the motivation to eat wild food like deer and dandelion comes from a desire to connect with the land, and not atall because it is easier - because it aint! when the industrial economy collapses it will be an easy way of life comparatively - but right now it is alot more work to hunt and gather that just getting food from the supermarkets, dumpstered, bought or otherwise.
more beautiful, yes - easier? not yet.

I could be wrong, and I admit it freely so don’t jump down my throat if I am, but it seems that when people talk of how hard work will be, they are talking about the work as in themselves or a small number of people doing it.
When we talk of an easier life with work not being that hard, we aren’t talking about 1, 2, or even 5 people sharing it. We are talking dozens. A whole community of people sharing the work load. Processing a deer is a lot work, yes. But add a large group into the equation? Not that hard.
Hunting for enough food adequate for dinner could take all day for one, if they manage to catch anything at all. Send a hunting party and your odds of a feast go up.
It can take all day for one person to build a temporary shelter. It can take only hours for a group to build a semi-permanent one.

Miranda,

Reminds me a bit of how in the south they used to have big get-togethers around harvest time for processing and preserving garden foods. Imagine rooms full of chatty women snapping pole beans. Work and play intermixed. This definitely speaks to the benefits of the group in rewilding, not the lone survivalist…

~wildeyes