Whoever said violence won't work

Visions of the Rewilding Renaissance
#21

I’ll give a few examples (either positive or negative depending on one’s point of view) of what violence has accomplished in certain contexts;

One positive (I think) example of violence working is the Seminole resistance in Florida. Even to this day there are Seminoles in Florida who claim the name “The Unconquered”.

The Maori of New Zealand would be another good example of a people who used violence in resistance to colonialism and won consessions because of it.

The “Flecheros” of Brazil are another good example. Go into their territory even now and they will simply kill you. Because of that, people don’t go there and the Brazilian govt. is looking to make the area an off-limits preserve.

The USA is now expending huge energy in Iraq in an invasion that would have been very hard to justify if some Arab fundamentalists hadn’t flown planes into the twin towers. Even though the Bush administration is ultimately responsible for the Iraq invasion, the WTC attackers sure helped them make it happen. I can’t think of anything that would do more to hasten the demise of the American empire than a huge modern-day military occupation of Iraq right as we’re approaching peak oil. The u.s. army uses more oil in it’s operations than…well, pretty much anything. Paradoxically, that makes George Bush and Osama Ben Laden the two men who (combined like yin and yang) constitute the biggest threat to western civilization.

I’m not a big fan of western civilization, however I’ll be the first to say if anyone want’s to entertain fantasies of bringing american empire down by spending their life blowing shit up they need to get the hell out of the rewilding community and go join the Islamic fundamentalists (fundamentalism breeds violence much more effectively than kinship with all life does).

Rewilders don’t need to be associated with that kind of b.s.,. As rewilders, we are here to help the people in our local communities (both human and non-human) survive the coming collapse of empire. It doesn’t help either our survivability, or our ability to reach out to and defend our communities to have our name and lifestyle associated with “terrorism”.

#22

the erratic retaliator survives only when the surrounding groups don’t escalate the attacks. however you manage to keep the attacks from escalating, is a difficult to spell-out strategy. BUt that fact that there are so few means that it more so has less to do with the strategy than the will of the neighbors to tolerate with wild preserves, or decimate, like the 34539048509 cultures we’ve never heard of before. Remember them, and just how lucky the handful of examples we have really are.

DO you want your livelihoods to be put in the hands of the choices your enemies make to escalate or not? I sincerely believe in psychological and physical judo, as a purely defensive mechanism, designed to turn the weight of my aggressors against them, for the very reason that I don’t want my life in any one else’s hands but my own.

#23

[quote=“RedWolfReturns, post:21, topic:420”]I’ll be the first to say if anyone want’s to entertain fantasies of bringing american empire down by spending their life blowing shit up they need to get the hell out of the rewilding community and go join the Islamic fundamentalists (fundamentalism breeds violence much more effectively than kinship with all life does).

Rewilders don’t need to be associated with that kind of b.s.,. As rewilders, we are here to help the people in our local communities (both human and non-human) survive the coming collapse of empire. It doesn’t help either our survivability, or our ability to reach out to and defend our communities to have our name and lifestyle associated with “terrorism”.[/quote]First of all, not all Islamic fundamentalist want to spend their lives ‘blowing shit up’. Second of all they don’t think highly of transsexuals joining their ranks, or even existing for that matter. I therefore rule out joining up with them (of course there are many other reasons as well). Thirdly, I don’t think I can agree with your idea of the purpose of the rewilding community. [quote=“RedWolfReturns, post:21, topic:420”]As rewilders, we are here to help the people in our local communities (both human and non-human) survive the coming collapse of empire. [/quote]
I am rewilding for my mental health, and to know I did as little as possible to contribute to the rape of Earth. In no way am I dedicated to helping the human species endure, myself included. Since I do not agree with your take on rewilding, I’m not a rewilder? People hold different views, even within small communities, understanding each other, even if you disagree with each other is very valuble. Division and in fighting does nothing but harm, open disscusion and debate enables us to grow together. I would appreciate not being told to ‘get the hell out of the rewilding community’, by a total stranger that I have never talked to or even written to.

#24

Yeah, I wasn’t talking directly to you Trollsplinter. Obviously, since I don’t know you. Please consider my words as if you heard them being broadcast on a radio talk show…not meant to be taken personally, merely meant to spark debate.

And btw, I know that the vast majority of Islamic fundamentalists don’t blow things up. The vast majority of Christian fundamentalists don’t blow things up either. But both ideologies are more compatible with the psychological alienation required for sustained war-making than a kinship relationship with all life on Mother Earth is.

Here’s a point for some healthy debate, however; If a person is not dedicated to helping our shared community live and survive here on Earth, what reason would I honestly have to consider that person as part of my community and not an enemy? Communities band together to support each other…if someone is not even interested in my basic survival (i.e. couldn’t care less whether I live or die, or worse yet, would rather I was dead than alive!), why would I want them in my community? Seems like cause for banishment at the very least.

What do you think the purpose of a rewilding community is anyway?

Oh and btw, another positive example of violence working out in favor of life on Earth was when the Chukchi indigenous people of Kamchatka kicked the Russian invaders out of their homeland some 200 odd years ago. The Chukchi got a reputation for being “fierce” and the Russians left them alone for quite some time. To the point where some Chukchi just met their first Christian missionaries in the last decade or two.

#25

[quote=“RedWolfReturns, post:24, topic:420”]Here’s a point for some healthy debate, however; If a person is not dedicated to helping our shared community live and survive here on Earth, what reason would I honestly have to consider that person as part of my community and not an enemy? Communities band together to support each other…if someone is not even interested in my basic survival (i.e. couldn’t care less whether I live or die, or worse yet, would rather I was dead than alive!), why would I want them in my community? Seems like cause for banishment at the very least.[/quote]I guess the best way I know to answer this question is with an example. I am part of the gay community. This is a large community with a huge variety of beliefs and priorities. Many of these folks happen to be severly consumeristic, and transphobic, I am transsexual, and anti-capitalist. I sometimes feel no conection to these folks, only frustration on my bad days, but they are still part of my community. I have said some really stupid shit before like, “I hate faggots.” but hey, I’m a faggot too, just a very different kind.

Chances are, if I ran into you in a (more) apocalyptic setting, we could probably get along, and I would help you out if I could. Not because I think it would increase the chance of human survival, but because I would feel good doing it. I want to live my life and love it, I will fight to not have it cut short by assholes. I wont fight for human survival.
Species come and go and I think that is okay. For some reason fighting against extinction feels the same to me as hording food for future years. It gets in the way of nature doing its job most efficiently. I think it’s fine that you want humans to endure, I don’t, but I still think we are both rewilders. I am fine with violence and you’re not, still, we are rewilders. Just different brands I suppose.

#26

So from my perspecitive, it looks like you’re saying you hold an opinion about the desireability of our survival as a species that conflicts with your basic animal desire for survival and personal mutual aid. As a member of the “human species” you want me dead, but as a person in front of you you’d help me survive. Is that right? Or am I misreading you there?

For myself, I can relate to such internal conflicts, but I don’t experience that kind of separation anymore. The two are one in the same as I experience them.

How do you separate a Human from Humanity? Can’t be done.

And how do you separate Human from Earth any more than you separate Hawk from Earth or Bear from Earth? It’s an illusion. Humans are not inherrently any more ecocidal than Hawks or Bears. Some of us have just lost our way.

Oh and my position on violence is a more complex than just “not being fine” with it. Note the examples I’ve been giving about how violence has worked in the past.

The place where a discussion of violence and “terrorism” get litteral is where someone runs around telling everyone they are a “rewilder”, “green anarchist” or “primitivist” and because of that he or she is wanting to kill off their fellow humans in mass. Fellow humans naturally retaliate against that…just like any of us would if it happened to us on a personal level. In the process of retaliation, they’re very likely to include me and my friends, since we’re “rewilders”. An FBI plant couldn’t do any better (even the right-wing militia guys are smart enough to know the one constantly talking about “blowing shit up” is probably the cop infiltrator). So as a “fellow rewilder” what am I to do about that? Practically speaking? Where is the “solidarity” there if your actions are likely to get me killed?

My point: If you want to “blow shit up” there’s no reason to tell anyone you’re doing it “for the earth” or “for the wild” or because you’re a “primitivist”, “green anarchist”, “ELF” or “rewilder”. If you’re going to walk down that road, the less you implicate the people you care about, or ideas you care about, the better. Instead, implicate people or ideas you might actually want to see the govenment go after. That’s what I mean when I say if you want to “blow shit up” go join the Islamic fundamentalists.

People need to be smart about this stuff. Talk of violence is serious business these days.

#27

One thing I’m with you on Trollsplinter is the pointlessness of “fighting against extinction”. For me, the point is living. Like the Lakota saying (which paradoxically is an affirmation of life at it’s core): “Today is a good day to die.” Only the truly living can say that and mean it.

However as I see it, one lives for one’s people. And that includes future generations.

#28

Okay yeah, I agree preaching violent revolution is foolish. I don’t plan on bringing down amerika with explosives. I do think it is good to be prepared to defend yourself from violence, even if you have to resort to it in order to do so. I think that’s something even the government agrees with (as long as you’re not defending yourself against them.) so hopefully it doesn’t fly in the face of security culture.

As for separating humans from humanity, I don’t know why but it works for me. I don’t feel conflicted, I guess even though I love something, I can let it go without horrible sadness. You totally nailed it with the feeling behind “it is a good day to die.” You can love your life without clinging to it for as long as possible. Same with my species I guess. Anyway your initial post makes much more sense to me now. Thanks for your words.

#29

Right on. Wild peace.