Can there be war without civ? There is a prominent eco-primitivist (I cant remember his name off the top of his head) who states that in the early years, there will be widespread war and raiding (There is a thread about it somewhere) for so long before the energy becomes unavilable to raid and fight.
Violence is a vision of the taker culture and I reject that as the possibility of human behavior in times of need.
Instead, I see as a possibility for humanity to help each other and break down the industrial matrices not by ‘changing the system’ but by creating their own systems, silently slipping out of industrial pacification and into wild and oh so human living.
Why is it so important for people to imagine violent outcomes? Because they are weak, physically, they know they cannot defend themselves. Without having security, you are a walking target, a insignificant single entity.
get a sparring partner, make up your own martial arts. Try to think of everything someone would throw at you. It’s not hard, it just takes a lot of work.
Buy a gun. Learn to be silent in the woods, and sneak up in your friends. Unplug the computer, pick up the pen, be free!
Your visions of apocalypse will fade when you have nothing to fear, but of course, fear itself.
Good luck and happy hunting!
TonyZ
I hope that you are right and I am wrong.
why would you hope to be wrong?
Generally for the same reasons you would fear to be right.
Hmm, how would you e-prime those statements? Enquiring minds want to know… 
I hope my predictions do no come to pass?
I hope my ideas fail to match the events?
My thoughts frighten me, and I wish they rang false.
so then fear is all you know?
do you not know the joys at the end of the hunt?
do you not hear the songs the trees sing?
letting go of fear is difficult because your ego must first apologize to the body for hurting it for so long, for freezing the body in the grip of ‘righteousness’.
When one is ‘right’ one becomes righteous, and one is cut off from Being.
Fear isn’t an emotion one should care to own. It’s only the binary fight or flight response trumping your senses.
Until you can admit your emotions are a choice, then you are like a child in a university grasping and straws too large for your hands or brain. Until you find the self that observes the body think and feel, you are a slave and trapped in your own personal hell of conception, never giving birth to Who You Are.
I think people are afraid to declare how they ‘are’ because they haven’t asked the universe for place at the table, yet.
Man, we’re talking about our ideas of collapse, of the suffering of our fellow man. I’m sorry dude, but “the song the trees sing” is kinda drowned out by the funeral dirge of my brothers. I fear the world that my thoughts tell me will come to pass, and I hope that I will find, through thought or experience, a flaw in my reasoning, a way to aviod death and suffering for the billions of people alive while transitioning to a million different (better?) ways to live. I’m not sure if that’s E-primitive, but I tried.
I am not afraid to say what I “are”, but I’m not that consistent that I can tell you what I am without being made a liar. Thats the only reason I even mess with this “E-primitive” nonsense. I can tell you what I do, what I think, Who I love and what I wish to acomplish in my life, but I cannot tell you who I am. I can tell you who I have been and who I wish to me, but I cannot tell you who I am. Maybe, in the final moment of my life, I can look over my life, and finally know who I am.
You’re coming on pretty strong there, pretty “righteous”, if I may say so.
WEll, when one takes a stand, it can appear to be righteous, without understanding the circumstances.
I’m attempting to come off as someone who doesn’t take fear as an answer or excuse to any problem, any issue.
You must live in a city if all you hear are death songs. I live in Terre Haute, population 60,000 (when school is in session). There are about 250,000 people living and working in the Wabash valley. The largest festival is the covered brindge festival, when three town in the area explode with back-of-the-woods goods and all the things most people only dream of preparing. People are kind, and the price of the goods available have no trace of the organic, local, and any other trendy markup you can think of.
I know lots of people ‘living the life’ and able to get by enough to pay property tax.
Our area is full of life, despite the challenges. The wabash river itself is a pulluted hole, but the side creeks and valleys are teeming with sensitive, riparian ecosystems ready to feed all of the Earth’s creatures.
I’ve never lived in a place where I could walk into the woods from my home. I have never been felt physically and spiritually dead than the time I picked up a friend in Queens, NYC on the way to a primitivist campout. I empathize, adn yet, I encourage you to push on past the justified, righteous and simply live oyur life. Once you become healthy again, then you will be more prepared to act in accordance with what is necessary and effectual, but not until your song has spent time learning other songs than the death songs that you hear.
SOrry for ‘picking on you’ I hope you don’t feel that way, and I hope I don’t appear to see myself as ‘perfect’. I fully acknowledge the difference between knowledge and practice, but what I’m saying here is, fear is a poor and base motivator, being motivated from the place of protecting that which nourishes you gives you if not moral ground, if not righteousness, the least it gives you is confidence of action.
It’s unfortunate to me you do not know who you are. I am a man. I am struggling to become a human being. I am one who tracks. I am one who teaches. I am one who leads. I am one with an internal compass. There are many things we already ‘are’.
SOme might say there is no ‘is’ becasue the sun will eventually fade adn the universe will become a dark cold place less than the ‘nothing’ it already is. Spiritually, I have verified that is no the case, that science is wrong, adn that the universe, is, in fact, eternal, and that our observations are still steeped in those famous biblical terms “…in the beginning”.
There was no beginning, there is no end. Life, energy, it is all eternal. It Is. Only the last vestiges of man-centered thinking need fade away into nothing…
Eh, we ain’t picking on each other, because we’re really just talking cross purposes.
I don’t “hear death songs” or anything of the sort. I think, that as a result of the way we live, people are suffering and dying, and that many more people will suffer and die in the future. I find hope that perhaps we can make a better life after it is all over. But I can’t help but also hope that there is a way to get there without all that suffering, even though I can’t beleive it’s likely. That is what it means to hope I am wrong. It has nothing to do with where I live. In fact, I find that the city can be invigorating and wild, at the right moments.
I’m not a spiritual person. I’m not saying I don’t beleive in the spirit, because I’ve don’t deny what I’ve seen, I merely don’t feel it’s strong importance in my life. I’m no shaman. What experience I’ve had with the spirit has never been what it presented itself as. The spirits I’ve met like to trick people. They like to lie, and they like to make themselves seem important. I’m immenently skeptical of anything “mystically revealed”, and never, ever take it at face value. That’s why I don’t buy the 2012 thing.
And I’m damn glad I don’t know who I am. I have a whole life of learning about myself ahead of me. If you are willing to take a little advice, never ever treat a person like you pity them, unless you truly mean to insult them.
did anybody see Mel Gibsons “Apocalypto”? Off topic? oh…I thought the ink and stone jobs were good…
I’ve also heard Dec. 23, as far as some specifics…
[iurl=http://www.rewild.info/conversations/index.php?topic=177.msg2698#msg2698]I loved it[/iurl].
I've also heard Dec. 23, as far as some specifics...
did somebody say my name?
lol
If anything, something will indeed be happening in 2012 that is a fact. For example, a new king of the planet will be elected in Washington DC…
Elected? Is that what you call it?
Elected? Is that what you call it?
That’s what they say on TV.
The past is a lie and the future is fiction. There is only now.
Suffering is only possible when anticipating future pain. Being as healthy as possible is your best bet to both escape the possible violence and benefit from foraging by having increased endurance and absence of disease. And remember to keep your body fat count up above 12% for men and 15% for women to help you through the coming simpler times.
One type of civ collapse that seems likely is long and gradual with increasing inflation and increased totalitarian attempts. I think dropping out is a valid reaction.
Anyone interested in becoming “boat people” with me let’s get to know each other. My plan is to move on a sail boat by the time my youngest child turns 19 which is 10 years from this winter. The existing liveaboards already have a sense of shared adventure and community and a great shortwave radio network.
I still want to prepare for a lack of technology by learning star navigation and how to make umiaks and crab claw sails just to not live in fear of people (like the governments police) stealing my stuff.
I agree and think this is one of the strongest/rational perspectives I’ve heard. Let’s not be afraid of what will happen in 2012 because collapse is happening around us already, collapse of life that is. Let us gather our strength and continue to rewild for the next 5 years, and continue after those 5 years and so on and so forth.
Also, if we desire to analyze the “future” based on indigenous insight of universe life, let’s not see it as some abstract world prophecy foretold by people here and there. Rather, let’s look at where the Mayan people are right now…
I’ve been to Southeastern Mexico, I’ve been to Chiapas. And what I see is indigenous tribes -tzeltal, tzotzil, chol, mame- and others organizing their communities to survive Collapse. Let’s understand that these land-based peoples have had to fight off western civilization for centuries!!!
1982-1994 were important years, during this time Mayans organized an armed uprising, declaring war on the federal government and the mexican army. This is their response to the plunder and genocide that NAFTA was proposing. To read more into the subject:
Download and read Issue 6 of the Green Anarchy Journal
http://www.greenanarchy.org/pdf/ga-06.zip
“Resisting Western Civilization. Notes on the Zapatista Army of National Liberation: EZLN†by Jesus Sepulveda
I also suggest doing a google search of La Otra Campan~a “The Other Campaign” which is the most recent political campaign initiated by the EZLN but publicly supported and adhered to by many leftist, indigenous, anarchist etc. organizations in Mexico. Also read:
The Sixth Declaration of the Selva Lacandona
http://enlacezapatista.ezln.org.mx/especiales/2/
Alright, so these are resources so we all know what is actually happening on the ground on the Earth in Chiapas with the indigenous peoples there. This way it is not as abstract as merely speculating about “2012”. It is obvious that they are in hand to hand combat with Civilization and Civilization’s racist ideologies. They are finding (not looking) ways in which to survive and continue with their culture. Hired mercenaries are attacking their communities, I just read an article about a mayan boy who was assaulted by these mercenaries fronting as an indigenous organization (this way the media portrays them as savages: indigenous fighting indigenous). This is happening more and more often, there is increased paramilitary violence in Chiapas happening as CIVILIZATION attempts to crush this LIFELINE.
I trust that they will survive and prosper.
P.S. If we are going to continue this thread about Collapse happening in Mexico, let’s look closer at 2010. Our history shows us revolutions happening in 1810, 1910, and yes 2010 will not be the exception. With the Olympics in the North and ever increasing conflict in the South, let’s keep our eyes peeled and ANALYZE with concrete reliable information what is happening around is in the next 3-5 years.
[quote=“TonyZ, post:49, topic:47”]SOme might say there is no ‘is’ becasue the sun will eventually fade adn the universe will become a dark cold place less than the ‘nothing’ it already is. Spiritually, I have verified that is no the case, that science is wrong, adn that the universe, is, in fact, eternal, and that our observations are still steeped in those famous biblical terms “…in the beginning”.
There was no beginning, there is no end. Life, energy, it is all eternal. It Is. Only the last vestiges of man-centered thinking need fade away into nothing…[/quote]
I also feel this quote from Tony. COuld not have put it any better. Thanks compa!
Thought you guys and gals might enjoy reading this…
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/12/071212-AP-arctic-melt.html
I don’t think the scientist picked 2012 at random.