Survivalists

There's a difference between surviving and thriving. Most primitive skills schools/classes focus on survival, not a way of life. If you're try to survive, you make a debris shelter. If you want to make a living, you build a wigwam and a nice, fluffy bed. If you want to survive, ammo and generators can help unil you're rescued; if you want to make a living, you need something that can last. Making a living means more than just surviving: it means thriving.

That’s an important distinction that I don’t see brought up that often, but it always comes to the foreground when one is out in the country for an extended period, at least I have found it to be so. Personally, in most temperate climes I prefer a fire-heated enclosed shelter year round (with the exception of mid-summer) like a tipi or goat-hair tent , log cabin or something of the sort. Nylon tents, tarps and lean-to’s in the northern areas of the world lose their appeal and practicality when the temperate begins to fall. I sleep rough or “houseless” a lot in the country and sometimes in the city and have for the past several years off and on so I know that being cold and without fire for days/weeks is not something I enjoy although you learn a lot about keeping warm without fire and shelter. However it’s not thriving, living on the street with no way to cook or dry your clothes, and being without fire and warm tea when you are wet and cold just plain sucks after you have done it long enough, and there is no remedy other than to seek suitable shelter where you can have a fire and warm yourself and have good sleep rather than frigid shivering, although exposure to the elements increases your ability to withstand temperature extremes but that is of limited usefulness IMO. It’s always when I am out in the country or staying with a friend who has a fire, and heated enclosed shelter when I feel really that comfortable, at least in temperate climes. In the subtropical desert, it’s a different story for most of the year, there you can sleep on the rock or sand with minimal bedding and be perfectly warm and snug, often the fire is just used for the slight chill of the morning or for a cup of tea, or to just to watch the flames flicker and coals glow-entertainment. Not so with more northerly climes and in the winter In the desert a partly enclosed shelter to block the wind makes life a whole lot more enjoyable. I have tinkered with debris huts and all types of expedient shelters, but it’s not a wise choice for making a living or thriving as was mentioned.

Worst case scenario, these guys figure everything out and develop a form of sustaibable suburbanization, which is about the most horrible thing I can imagine. The twentieth century, dragging on, forever. Shudder.

Yea I often wonder if something like that will happen, if there is one thing about human beings I am sure of, it’s that we appear to be infinitely adaptable to all kinds of living conditions, I mean look at where we are now. People can live in what I would call unlivable conditions and bear children and propagate the species who live in similarly unlivable conditions. Who would have thought?

Blackpowder and flintlock muzzleloaders can be made and maintained long after the assualt rifle crowd have long since ran out of ammo.

Flintlocks and blackpowder arms will be a good option for some for a while as the bullets and shot are easily melted down but I do see drawbacks such as obtaining the sulfur and other ingredients needed to make it if they are not easily obtained locally. Maybe crossbows or other primitive launching devices will become more commonplace but I personally won’t give up guns until I am forced to do so as a result of lack of availability/cost, simply because they are such a useful tool for successfully obtaining wild meat. I think primitive hunting tools (and modern ones) are more effective when used communally as they ensure a higher success rate, several hunters with weapons working together(whether they are hunting the same or several animals) rather than a lone archer or atlatlist.

Hey! Nice to see you SOW! You can’t hide from me!

I was hoping a few of us from PP would come over here. They’ve got the lawn chairs up and the tiki lights lit up over here for us! There will be more coming I’m sure.

Thanks Crash I appreciate such a kind welcome. Nice to see you as well. BTW, You mentioned on another thread that you are looking for a braintanning apprentice. Tell me more about your plans in that regard. I just spent some time with Billy in BC learning braintanning and really had a great time learning from him and am now travelling abroad to do more tanning and learn similar skills.

These armed to the teeth, helicopter owning, bunker building, survivalists have been a hot topic with a friend lately. I am definately “loading up” on what my meager income allows, (no helicopters in other words) but in a straight fire fight, I would NOT make it without luck on my side. My buddy was feeling like we had absolutely no chance in a fight (we’ve been talking to a marine sniper scout, talk about SKILL with a gun!) against a trained militia. Maybe he’s right.

I’m hoping that working with, instead of against nature will give or clan a chance. I don’t have much interest in black powder, but traps seem very promising to me. Traps can be simple, incredibly easy to build, defensive weapons. So if any of you folks know some great human traps, please drop me a line. :slight_smile: Combining earth skills with a handful of decent firepower when nescessary, I hope will work if we come to violent times in the NW.

i don’t know

i tend to agree w/ both Sun Tzu & the War Nerd when it comes to “hardware”. of all the variables involved in a large-scale armed conflict, i just don’t think “hardware” is the most important one.

i’m sure many disagree with me…

I wrote a long time ago on Ishcon about Gorilla Warfare, and how simply things like pepper bombs and traps, as well as herbal sleeping tinctures could be delivered very low tech, and on a wide scale. I will put those thoughts together. However, most of my theories and techniques would only work on the defensive, and would still make you deal with your enemies as people, but at least now you have their weapons.

This, for example, your village. In a well sited village, there are ‘choke points’ that any threat would have to run through. In those choke points, early detection systems will trigger and overwhelm the invading soldiers with non-lethal bioweapons, such psilocybin, or capsacin. Then, during their recovery, you have a captive audience that is easily disarmed, reasoned with, and sent back on their way, that is, if they don’t join the cause. Psilocybin is mother nature’s interrogation tool, i’ve seen more than one mind change completely after one session.

Skilled therapists could take this aggressive opportunity and turn it into something beautiful.

There are many many other ways of dealing with problems other than throwing metal INTO each other, this is only one idea, and what might happen to you if oyu get aggressive with me and my peeps.

psychological warfare. when outnumbered, and outgunned, what else can you do? OF course, any steamrolling agency will just steamroll, good luck protecting yourself against a carpet bombing (build bomb shelters??), but what i"m talking about is dealing more with the ‘irratic retaliator’ type of interractions.

I am preparing, because, although I have tried clicking my ruby slippers together, Toto and I just haven’t gone poof and suddenly rewilded.

This reminds me so much of Tamarack’s essay “Armageddon Looms”.

I don’t think that any group has a monopoly on Survival skills. The Rangers are US Storm Troopers. They are taught from the Military to assault the objective until you own it. The Army hones this skill; they don’t create it, a certain number of people are just drawn to it. These people are highly regarded by there peers for there ability to bring mayhem to a given situation, they are rarely consulted on there opinion on how to best handle a situation, we already know there answer. Be careful when you start talking about the military there a lot deeper then you know. The Special Forces teams go into very hostile areas for months at a time in with very little sometimes know resupply. If you can find one of theses guys they know there stuff you can learn a lot. They are hard to find because you don’t find them standing on top of boulders beating there chest telling the world how tuff they are. The majority of the Military is made up of rear echelon troops, clerks, nurses, that sort of thing. This group is a surprisingly average mix running the whole gamut of society. 75% of the combat strength is made up of National Guards Men. This group gives the Federal Gov. a hard time because they think more and don’t give an automatic response to orders in the affirmative, for instance in New Orleans they ask the Guardsmen there in charge of security to disarm the public, there answer was No the people have the right to protect themselves and there property. The most hostile people they found there were the Police and FEMA they did disarm some of them. A large number of NG are there with a genuine desire to help there neighbors in bad situations. A lot of them also feel that it’s a lost cause and figure that the last check to bounce will say Uncle Sam. Look around your neighborhood you’ll probably find good students and teachers wearing US Army occasionally on there shirt. Knowledge is where you find it and the most valuable thing you can have, don’t loose the chance to gain something that might save your life because the teacher doesn’t look or talk the way you thing they should.

It might not have been your intention to do so, but I have to admit I’m a bit… uncomfortable with people referencing unmarried women in my would-be post-“apocalyptic” tribe as a commodity to be traded for deer carcasses.

This isn’t to say that if “Joe-Mountain-Man” meanders in with some stuff “The Tribe” is interested in wouldn’t compensate him appropriately (winter shelter sounds fantastic), and who knows? If Joe, there hits it off with someone, all the better! Mozeltov! Let them work it out.

Woe be to the schmuck that mozeys on in looking to get lucky and slink back off into the woods to leave the aftermath to the “natives” though…

~SW

what does exactly?

ah, yes

inescapable due to its pervasiveness? or as inherent?

Primitive tribes welcomed outsiders to mate with there young women and the child was welcomed into the womans clan and was a full member of the tribe. A rapist was murdered on the spot no trial or jury just revenge of a brother or mate or sister, mother , father…

Whoa, that’s quite a generalization. “Primitive tribes”??

It would be helpful if you could narrow that down a bit. Who exactly are you talking about and where did you get that information? Some bodice ripper supermarket novel?

[quote=“heyvictor, post:33, topic:382”]Whoa, that’s quite a generalization. “Primitive tribes”??

It would be helpful if you could narrow that down a bit. Who exactly are you talking about and where did you get that information? Some bodice ripper supermarket novel?[/quote] Yah you nailed me! TRIAL OF THE CANNIBLE DOG . TRAIL OF TEARS. I’ve read so many they do tend to run together.
But this section is Common Misconceptions after all;-}

“Until then I imagine there will be some interactions between the forming tribes and individualists who prefer a more solitary path. Perhaps serving some useful functions as a longhunter and advance scout in exchange for winter shelter or a romp with an available female.”

Wow, I couldn’t believe I missed that, so I went back to find it. I realized I stop reading at a certain point in long posts and I just skim. Maybe I should have a little patience and actually read what people write… then again, if I had never read that, or had somebody point it out, I would be a happier person for it. Guess it’s good to remember that an interest in getting free of civilization means so many different things to so many different people.

[quote=“TrollSplinter, post:35, topic:382”]“Until then I imagine there will be some interactions between the forming tribes and individualists who prefer a more solitary path. Perhaps serving some useful functions as a longhunter and advance scout in exchange for winter shelter or a romp with an available female.”

Wow, I couldn’t believe I missed that, so I went back to find it. I realized I stop reading at a certain point in long posts and I just skim. Maybe I should have a little patience and actually read what people write… then again, if I had never read that, or had somebody point it out, I would be a happier person for it. Guess it’s good to remember that an interest in getting free of civilization means so many different things to so many different people.[/quote]

I’m reminded of Dr. Strangelove (Or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb) – the part where “the good doctor” describes his ideal post-apocalyptic underground society. “And of course we will need to repopulate … so we will assure a ratio of 10 females for every male. And in the interest of repopulating, of course, we shall have to provide very attractive females indeed.”

Funny when it comes from Kubrick (his sense for the ironic is delightful), but seriously? … yuck.

[quote=“TrollSplinter, post:35, topic:382”]“Until then I imagine there will be some interactions between the forming tribes and individualists who prefer a more solitary path. Perhaps serving some useful functions as a longhunter and advance scout in exchange for winter shelter or a romp with an available female.”

Wow, I couldn’t believe I missed that, so I went back to find it. I realized I stop reading at a certain point in long posts and I just skim. Maybe I should have a little patience and actually read what people write… then again, if I had never read that, or had somebody point it out, I would be a happier person for it. Guess it’s good to remember that an interest in getting free of civilization means so many different things to so many different people.[/quote]

I’m sorry if that portion of my post offended anyone. I used a smiley afterwards in the orginal post in the hope that it wouldn’t be taken too seriously. I guess it wasn’t enough. I’ll refrain from using any sort of humor in the future. Again my apologies.

[quote author=Plains link=topic=410.msg7218#msg7218 date=1198788753]

[quote=“wildandfreehumyn, post:31, topic:382”]So maybe this is a good place to bring something up. Is anyone interested in a sort of hopeless, probably shot-lived, and likely doomed unsociety of respectful sane nonbigoted individual open-minded observant interesting sorts of people? As an idea to dream about or distant possibility at the very least?

At least I know I’m not the only disappointed one.[/quote]

I am most interested, but I suppose I don’t actually know what an unsociety is… Why short lived and doomed? I don’t think there has to be weakness in individual types that lack bigotry. We can still fight like hell for ourselves and our beliefs. Wow, too much optimism for one sentence, sorry about that.

My disappointment in so many things can feel ridiculously overwhelming. It is not really a good thing to know others share that with me, but it makes me feel a little less crazy for my views on society. That includes some of the crap “us rewilders” are dragging out of society, and bringing along with us.

I believe that major power issues which drive groups apart are not human nature but social conditioning, learned behavior. I think that relearning how to share power is the responsibility of any individual planning to rewild and live in a non-hierarchical social structure.

If we’re defining survivalism as the practice of preparing for as many scenarios as possible, with a stress put on self-sufficiency, then there’s certainly plenty of overlaps between rewilders and survivalists. I’m one. I obviously don’t prefer to live in the woods with nothing but my knife, but I’d like to be able to (of course, even then I’d attempt to quickly become comfortable).

The main problem has to do with our society, I think. Practicing survivalism doesn’t really necessitate any particular philosophy, so survivalists are just as likely to be part of the dysfunctional civilization as anyone else, and just as likely as others to take an anti-civ view of the world (that is to say, not that likely).

The macho Rambo type is the result of the stupid, hyper-masculine, misogynistic, anti-social, racist, and anti-intellectual tendencies and habits that our culture instills in people (especially us men) just with the addition of some practical skills. Most of these types, that is to say most men involved in survivalism, will get into it as much for their fragile egos as they do for practical purposes. It makes them feel tough. This is probably one of the biggest reasons that a lot of them go about it ass-backwards, in addition to their addiction to civilization. There’s also the fact that our highly materialistic and mechanistic society doesn’t train people to see the importance of methodological and social skills, what we’re calling invisible technologies, but simply the physical tools one uses. Hyper-masculine types see sharing and compassion as weakness, not strength.

Just my couple of chunks of zinc.