Shamanism, Daoism

Regenerative Culture Spiritual Technology
#21

To me, a shaman is a person who works with all the many layers of what we call reality to bring harmony between humans and the natural world. This includes being able to call upon and interact with spirits, faeries, the dead and so on to bring about that harmony. This is a form of healing. They also might heal a person individually, but that’s actually the same thing if you really think about it.

I have certainly met some who call themselves shaman, but who are caught up in the game of inflating their own selfworth and ego. Those who pratice shamanic skills for the sake of being admired or feared fall into this realm. But personally, those people are not shamans to me. They are huckersters and cons, with a vested interest in themselves but not true compassion or calling for healing.

Anyone who tries to do a shamanic healing on someone else will have to realize in the process that they are not healing anyone… Healing comes about through a combination of energy and assistance from the spirits and the cooperation of the person being healed. The shaman in can not claim credit for this, since all he or she does is to help assist that relationship and perhaps act as a channel to feed more energy into the process. But, the energy is not from the shaman… it comes through the shaman. To claim that the shaman owns it, is like a drain pipe claiming it owns the water that flows through it…

To me, it is a bit like the paradox of understanding the essential nature of Zen or the Tao. You might hear someone claim to understand the Tao. Anyone who makes such a statement, immediately proves that he or she does not know what they claim to know. The need for that person’s ego to claim possession and control over something immediately proves that they don’t really know it. It is the same for a shaman… any shaman who claims to be a great healer, immediately proves their ignorance and arrogance.

:wink:

#22

Thought I’d share my experience. I did a fair bit of study of everything, but when I really wanted to get serious, I did the following:

  1. There are many correct paths to spirituality but not ALL of them are correct.
  2. Is there a methodology that can show one how to learn ‘healthy’ spirituality?

(1) arose because I couldn’t understand the pagan sensibility that you shouldn’t judge anyone and that everything was correct. This seemed to defy common sense. If I practiced, say, Hawaii’n spiritual ways in the middle of a desert, they would seem superfulous and could even be lethal!

For (2) I looked to see if there were any examples of humans whom we could realiably say were ‘divorced’ from their original ecosystems and forced to take up a new spirituality. It turns out you can find examples everywhere. Here, I turned to the L.A. tribes. I was blessed with two examples, the Chumash, which popped up from 10-30 thousand years ago (depends on who you talked to) and the Tongva, who migrated to California a mere 4,000 years ago. Talking to those folks and reading their myths, you really got a sense of what forces they had to deal with, forces which are still abundantly potent today.

And that, my friends, is why I follow Sky-Coyote. :slight_smile: But the story doesn’t quite end there. It’s irreverent, ignoble and downright rude (not to mention potentially dangerous) to just appropriate native rites and call them your own. You can get adopted into a tribe – that’s fine – and the forces that impacted them are the same ones that impacted you but your relationship is different.

So, I reached into my ancestor’s legends, both on the Taker side and the tribal side, and found ways to reconcile their forces. I’m still working on it but I can say I’m definitely set on a path and there’s enough synchronicity occuring that validates it that I’m comfortable with where I’m heading.

An example is needed (I think)…

I put to paper a piece called “White Road.” One part of it deals with a couple going to deal with Death for the sake of the world. The oldest legend of one set of my ancestors, the Norse, deals with three gods who went to the border between ice and fire. Their names translate to “Will”, “Sacred Way” and “Passion”. Together, they challenge the giant that lives there and recreate the world. “Passion” (Odin) goes on to rule the new gods.

Working with the premise that somebody did something, their story boils down to three people went to a place, challenged and overcame something and from it, the world as we know it emerged.

Now what do I know from my Taker heritage? According to our science, the pale-skinned Caucasians came from the North; their pale skin came from a relatively uncommon genetic condition that adapted well to a marginal climate. Also, these pale-skins risked everything to stay in that climate. There was a Paleolithic ‘choke point’ for the Caucasian cline, an event that damn neared wiped out everybody before the Ice Age ended.

So the two stories are both honored by being fused in a way that preserves the meaning and significance of both. Three godly brothers become a family. Their challenge ends up based on chance, but still changes the world. Passion still emerges to become the ‘head’ of a new people.

I know its a long-winded post but I guess what I’m trying to put forth is that there are footsteps out there that our ancestors have left for us. Start with the people that lived where you live, honor those that came from somewhere else and from that, re-wilded spirituality start to grow.

Shamans… heh. I like the way it’s phrased down here. In Los Angeles, the Tongva has a protected class of people, those who skills were so cool, so vital, that they were all considered ‘married’ to the head of the tribe. These people were the takers of sacred medicines (down here, that’s datura, a really rough hallucinogen that works be spiking a high fever), expert botanists (those that knew practically EVERY plant in detail), basket-weavers, dancers, singers, storytellers and (finally) bisexuals / homosexuals.

In their tradition, if I was a Tongva, I would be considered a sacred person. I like that, because it doesn’t give me weird powers / unfettered access to spirits / mega-healing. It’s just me. :slight_smile:

Best

Bill Maxwell

#23

Bill your post made me think a lot about the matters discussed here, especially my own words…

It seems that often for the ease of talking, I reduce things down to saying I follow or am feel most connected with (insert your favorite religion/path/etc.)… in my case maybe I say Huna (a form of hawai’ian shamanism), Taoism, Animisim…

But, truly I don’t follow those paths. They are not my path. My path, is my own. The best teachers in my life always seem to bring me back to that point. I would have to say the best teacher out there is Nature herself.

I believe that there is a path for everyone, and that is ultimately there own… I have agreed many times in the past that all religious spiritual paths are correct for someone. To this day, I still see this as true to a point. From my limited observations and conversations with others, I have grown to believe that finding your path is something that happens between the lines… or you might say, between the praying, chanting, reading scripture, drumming, or whatever other practice is involved in the spiritual or religious group or denomination you choose to work within.

Praying, chanting, etc. are great tools mind you… and they can give you consistant results, but… finding your path to Spirit happens in a way that is more your own than the skin on your back. No book, person or practice can capture that and hand it to you on a silver platter. They are mainly there, it seems, to get your mind out of the way.

:slight_smile:

#24

The other day I read the wikipedia entry on Shamanism and lo a quote lent credence to something I wondered about a while back.

In some cultures, the border between the shaman and the lay person is not sharp:

“Among the Barasana, there is no absolute difference between those men recognised as shamans and those who are not. At the lowest level, most adult men have some abilities as shamans and will carry out some of the same functions as those men who have a widespread reputation for their powers and knowledge [36] ”

The difference is that the shaman knows more myths and understands their meaning better, but the majority of adult men knows many myths, too

I guess it’s sort of like the difference between a band that travels in a clunky van covering “Louie Louie” and “Free Bird” in bars and one that fills entire stadiums and goes platinum many times over. Not to say that one is better than the other or that one has more funloving adventures.

You never know - the bar band might write a lyric that plays a pivotal role in the life of someone who goes off to do something so miraculous it eclipses all the effects brought about by the music of the more popular one.

I would have to say the best teacher out there is Nature herself.

I would have to agree. Listening to the living world is about all anyone has to do to learn and open and breathe this type of thing. Having an ancient rich and well developed mythology to act as a spiritual trampoline helps alot - and that’s why I value the written works of certain lodestars in the field - but really, a shaman is basically playing Santa to a village of enthusiastic children. Open your ears - Tommy might have a million toys and no batteries and he’ll be more than happy to tell you so.

& you can bet he’ll remember an act of compassionate unconditional goodwill.

A quote I’d like to share, sort of related to all this, from a book I was reading today - The Wizard by Gene Wolfe:

…his wisdom makes him kind and his kindness makes him wise.

#25

It still sends a thrill up my spine every time I hear another human being express this sentiment. I don’t know what else to say. :slight_smile:

#26

Beautifully written response, Richard.

You never know - the bar band might write a lyric that plays a pivotal role in the life of someone who goes off to do something so miraculous it eclipses all the effects brought about by the music of the more popular one.

Anyone with a strong connection to nature and a true awareness of him or herself has the potential to be a shaman, only the depth of knowledge and experience as a shaman will vary from individual to individual.

Our connection to Spirit (or The Great Mystery) is a very personal affair. We humans do not have a mind that can grasp fully all the possibilities of the effects one individual might have on another person, group or place. But, there is no doubt we have a power that can ripple in its effect in all directions, even well into the future.

“Among the Barasana, there is no absolute difference between those men recognised as shamans and those who are not. At the lowest level, most adult men have some abilities as shamans and will carry out some of the same functions as those men who have a widespread reputation for their powers and knowledge [36] ”

That reminds me of the Bushmen in Africa. In some tribes up to 60% of the men and 40-50% of the women could act as shaman for their group. The Bushmen have a very interesting history, being probably the oldest group of humans on earth with the oldest unbroken connection to very ancient ancestors. This is a curious fact and reminds me of a story I heard told to me by one of the instructors at Wilderness Awareness School. I believe this was a story about Bradford Keaney, who did extensive research with the Bushmen.

Mr. Keaney made an amazing and rather amusing discovery about the way the Bushmen arranged and understood the Spiritworld. He spent some time talking with his host, who was a Bushmen shaman, about these things. One day the Bushmen answers one of his questions about some particular aspect of the Spiritworld, and subsequently gave an answer which was very elaborate and structured. The following day, Mr. Keaney asks about the same thing and gets a totally different answer. In his confusion, he asks his host why he answered this way this time but totally differently yesterday… To which his host replies, “That was yesterday! Today is different. I told you because I thought that is what you wanted.”

So I got several things out of hearing that story. For one, the Bushmen did not see the Spiritworld in a fixed way, and therefore, answering the same way each time did not make sense. Second, they did not organize their understanding of it in the typical, compartmentalized Western way. So the Bushmen who was sharing with Keaney was really trying to be a good host. He was telling Keaney what he thought he wanted to hear. But, to his people making a bunch of boxes and analyzing the Spiritworld with the intellect was not part of their tradition.

;D

#27

[quote=“Willem, post:25, topic:110”][quote author=Richard link=topic=86.msg2826#msg2826 date=1184485183]
I would have to agree. Listening to the living world is about all anyone has to do to learn and open and breathe this type of thing. [/quote]

It still sends a thrill up my spine every time I hear another human being express this sentiment. I don’t know what else to say. :)[/quote]

Same here! I feel so amazed that the world willingly talks to us whenever we willingly listen.

#28

Tony,

You were going to suggest a translation of the Tao Te Ching a while back, could you post that now?

#29

oh shit sorry, thanks for asking for what you want to get!

#30

I haven’t read that translation! Looks interesting. I love Ellen Chen’s translation:

It spans context, and history, and constantly deals with the prickly problem of idiom - much like Jesus’ “turn the other cheek” actually meant “next make them slap you with the inside of their hand (rather than the backside, which came first) to give you peer treatment and respect”. The Tao Te Ching’s humor has all kinds of double entendre’s and odd references. We’ll never fully understand them, I think, but Chen does a brilliant job. Having said that, it makes it a much longer read.

#31

Well, I started reading through the translation of the Tao Te Ching that Tony recommended and I came across this passage:

The sage never has a mind of his own; He considers the mind of the common people to be his mind.

So what if the common people no longer have the mind of the common people, but have been influenced by mass media, etc. In this case the mind of the common people would be similar to the mind of the elites or at least those in control of the media. In either case they no longer have their own best interest in mind.

#32

how could the common people not have their own mind? how is a media executive not a common person? Does Jay Leno’s cars and John Travolta’s planes make them less common than you, with whatever it is you collect?

If Brooke Shields is allowed to be seen as a common person, what makes a person uncommon?

But I understand your question as you ask it, as well (the above being food for thought).

The sage knows that all of humanity is spiritually united. In stanza 12, which to you are referring to, the overall emotion of the passage is to help the reader tune themselves into their audience. One who can discern clearly the needs of others has the power to give what others want.

In the time of the Tao Te Ching, as well as it is today, people are still struggling to understand why they have strayed so far away from the Tao. A sage knows that sometimes, laughter is the best medicine. It opens up the mind to new ideas. A sage connects the warm fuzziness of a good laugh with pointed truth and thus associates the Tao with that emotion. It is religions and economies that try and make being one with the Way a painful thing.

So then, is John Stewart an example of the uncommon? Personally, I would like to see someone even on-up Steve Colbert, who has used his very own name to break spells of ignorance through a gut-shattering laugh.

#33
The sage never has a mind of his own; He considers the mind of the common people to be his mind.

I think this means that the sage does not greedily horde her/his insights and assume that those who do not endeavor to go deeper into the mysteries of the tao cannot understand their jaunts into the uncommon ranges of the periphery, instead communicating with a responsibility to share and try and bridge that gap.

Anywho, here’s a free translation for contreasting: http://www.gutenberg.org/dirs/etext95/taote10.txt

#34

[quote=“locke, post:31, topic:110”]Well, I started reading through the translation of the Tao Te Ching that Tony recommended and I came across this passage:

[quote]The sage never has a mind of his own;
He considers the mind of the common people to be his mind.[/quote]

So what if the common people no longer have the mind of the common people, but have been influenced by mass media, etc. In this case the mind of the common people would be similar to the mind of the elites or at least those in control of the media. In either case they no longer have their own best interest in mind.[/quote]

I think Richard has it more or less more or less nicely put. Also, I have to clarify, although I am by no means an expert. In cases like this I like to think some of the clarity is lost in translation. By “common” he probably meant someone who is not a sage.

The entire verse (verse 49) is really necessary to make the meaning of these two lines clearer. That is the problem with translations and generally with works that have a deep meaning. You CANNOT look at a sentence separately and take it literally. You have to step back and understand what the entire thing is trying to convey. In this case he says that The sage generally does not have a mind that is made up in any way. What he thinks of of others, and how he behaves with others (i.e. what is in his mind about them), will depend solely on the mind of the other person. So the sage will behave with you solely based on your thinking and behaviour. Something that is somewhat of a lost art in the western world (in my experience). As an example I had a friend who went to the bank machine the other day, it was in an enclosed area. He wanted to do some stuff, and draw quite a sum of money. Suddenly before he drew any money he bolted; I was in the car at this time so I asked him about his strange behaviour he says: “oh there was a black guy in the corner when, I just realised it”. So he was scared the man would steal the money he drew just because he was a black guy who was outside the bank machine. Turns out the man was a construction worker, working nearby, he had come to the bank machine to get out from the cold, and take a break from work. (Bank machine is inside the building).

This would be a counter-example of what it says a sage would do!

Hope this helps.

-Tj

#35

[quote=“Little Spider, post:1, topic:110”]How many of you have found connection with/through various approaches to Spirit such as Shamanism, Daoism, Zen buddhism, Animism, etc?

Which ones are you fond of and why?

;D[/quote]

It’s a little strange I haven’t replied to this yet. huh! I have always been a bit shamanistic. Although I did not know the name till recently. I encountered Daoism completely by mistake, towards the end of my “what is life all about” journey. We all have those, only most have them a little towards their 40’s or 50’s. After searching for meaning in life, and some sort of name for my very odd belief system, and thus some way of going ahead, I encountered Daoism. It made sense to me, the more I read about it, the more it seemed to me my life philosophy just fit into Daoism.

Of course there are two sides to “Religion” or spirituality - philosophy and Practice. You can have the same philosophy but put it into practice differently, that’s where the little differences come in. I found, very much unexpectedly, that I tended to be very shamanistic in my practices of Daoism. As some like to put it there are 3 types of Daoists:

  1. The Philosophical Ones, those who use Daoism as a philosophy. Not much to do with spirituality. They just find some philosophical sense in Daoistic teachings.
  2. The Taoists of Japan and China. This is a full blown religion very much influenced by Buddhism. And has very much evolved from how it was back in the day.
  3. The Shamans of the Ancient East. Daoism was taken from their philosophical views. (Fu Hsi was the first to do this, he was a Shaman King). This type of daoism is like shamanism with a Daoistic twist.

I would fall into category 3. Of course some of my view are a little different from say the “native american shaman”. Like to me, there is no seperate spiritual world. So thus endeth my spiritual journey, or has it just begun?

Any who, sorry for the rant, but that’s my view on Shamanism and Daoism.

-Tj

#36

Tj,
I hope neither your “what is life all about” journey nor your “spiritual journey” are really over. I thought that’s what life is all about, a journey not a destination.

#37

[quote=“Little Spider, post:1, topic:110”]How many of you have found connection with/through various approaches to Spirit such as Shamanism, Daoism, Zen buddhism, Animism, etc?

Which ones are you fond of and why?

;D[/quote]

Yeah, what heyvictor said. The “what’s life all about journey”–can ya possibly mark a time when it begins? does it ever end? :wink:

TJ, I love the Fu Xi stories! I heard he figured out nets and hooks for the chinese (well, i guess this happened long before the political box with the name china came about) hunter gatherers. But Shaman King? Hm. Seems like so many good mythical folks’ stories get co-opted at some point–I heard a little about his female counterpart, Nu Gua or NuWa, nurturing humanity back to life on earth after a great disaster and thought, wow, cool, a pre-civ postapocalyptic goddess!

Then I heard this other story about how she created humans from mud–sorta like the coyote creation story. Then it went on to say she got bored with creating each one and just starting flinging a muddy rope around, and then the hand-created people became nobles and the flying mud-chunk people became the peasants, to do all the work. Now how do we dig out the nugget of a good story about this interesting, inspiring character from under all the mud-flinging hierarchical bullshit piled on top of it?

The Hindus have some pretty cool deities. By far my favorite: Kali Ma, the black mother of destruction (and transformation). Check out her story.

#38

[quote=“heyvictor, post:36, topic:110”]Tj,
I hope neither your “what is life all about” journey nor your “spiritual journey” are really over. I thought that’s what life is all about, a journey not a destination.[/quote]

no, no it really hasn’t which is why if you notice i say thus endeth my journey, or has it?

The “journey” that I am referring to is more of a quest, where I was trying to find where I fit in things, what i am doing here, what do i want out of life etc. Now that I have, I find I have much to learn, and a long journey ahead! At least now I know what I want out of life, where I fit in the “grand scheme of things” etc. A lot of people go through much of their life’s not even having gone through that first quest (which is more like the first step on a long journey), and thus never really ride with life, rather they let it pass them by, without ever figuring out what that “wooshing” noise was all about!

Also unlike a lot of people I know who had a change of religion, I never really had a change of heart, I just realised what it was I truly believed and found a name for it. That in itself took some time. It’s harder than it sounds to really delve deep into yourself take you apart and examine your basic beliefs, values, life philosophies etc, and question it all. Do i really think it’s true, or am I just believing it because someone told me so! It happens a lot more than you know. At least to me anyways. I found a LOT of the things I believed where true, upon real examination, really did not make any sense to me. For e.g. for a while I struggled with the hindu concept of maya, I used to believe it was true. I also was a devout hindu for sometime. upon examination I found, much of those believes where not really mine, but rather others’ influences. I did not really believe that, rather I just accepted it as true since everyone told me it was.

Also growing up, I had a LOT of believes that I still hold to date, that never made sense to most people, I mean really the WIND is my oldest friend, how many do you know won’t look at you funny when you tell them that. I used to spend hours at my old school (Rishi Valley) talking to the trees and birds. I went bird watching, but really had not interest in recognising the birds, I simply delighted in watching them and maybe learning things from them. NOT very normal for a 10 year old boy in India. So I had to examine my beliefs and wonder, are they really true, if they are why am I the only one who seems to be talking to the wind and the trees and find it very normal. Of course I have now found many people in many cultures across the world for ages who have been doing that, so it comforts me a bit. I’m NOT nuts, I’m just a Daoistic -shaman! An unusually common mistake! (lol)

-Tj

#39

TJ, when you speak of maya, i wonder what you mean? i first heard that idea in a buddhist context, didn’t realize it came from hindu. I understood it to mean the “illusion” of physical reality? Around the same time I heard about some design software called maya, used for “realistically” simulating the visual effects of surface textures in 3D/industrial design, so that meaning stuck with me.

One more thing about FuXi. Someone who speaks chinese told me his name literally means, “to lie prostrate”, and then further translated it as “humble ruler”. I first heard of this guy as one of a pantheon of representatives of various stages in the history of chinese culture/medicine, looking back through civilized eyes. But maybe he represents more, a vestige of our humility toward/continuity with the natural world/community.