Rewilding vs. Primitive Skills and Survivalism

Visions of the Rewilding Renaissance Common Misconceptions
#29

Sounds like a lot like doing without doing Andrew. I’m not sure that’s really allowed. Let me check the rule book.

I’ve heard it said that some aboriginal peoples did a whole lot of sitting around because you don’t use up as much calories, causing a need, in just hanging out.

Scout – Yeah, I get it and my people skills generally result in “I can’t stand him.” To “I think he’s amazing.” With the later having the fewer adherents.

My limited time in the bush did show me that being a good provider works fairly well in mate selection among neo-primitives who are cold and hungry enough. In my experience talk gets cheap way fast. I’ve also yet to see a social structure, be that friends who did primitive skills, the social structure at the Rabbit Stick, or even the social structure of the US that doesn’t have some leader of whatever qualities who ran the operation. Take that one person out and what do you have?

Social structure is needed, in fact necessary for individual survival. We as modern Americans don’t do it well because we want it all and we want it now at whatever costs; our children, our time on this earth, our lovers, our egos all up for sale for what we want and think is best. Tribal people worked because they were related. You don’t fuck your cousin’s wife…unless he wants you to. As has been seen by the many attempts with communes the real story boils down to who sleeps with whom?

So, while I admittedly need to work on my social skills, people who are in need are going to be very easy to work with, and what I have stored in my head should be its own currency in such an environment of need and knowledge. So I grow food, tan hides, work on an ambulance occasionally, study, practice, and wait………

#30

How about practicing being able to clearly think things through or problem solve while also dealing with extreme discomfort, hunger or stress.

Or maybe practice being kind to others, being able to take others needs or points of view into consideration, being able to compromise and come to consensus decisions while also dealing with not having eaten for a couple of days or being very cold and wet or possibly being in danger.

These are all things that real life hunter gatherers have to deal with.
Are these the other kind of “primitive skills” ya’ll are talking about?

Hunter gatherers have to move a lot. Sure you can stock up on stuff if you’re staying in one spot. But that’s not what purist, hunter gatherers who have defined themselves into a dogmatic pigeon hole do. That’s what farmers do. If you stay in one spot you will use up the resources unless you modify your environment to produce more of the things you need.

When you are on the move there is always the risk that when you get to the berry picking grounds you find there ain’t none this year, or when you get to the fishing camp you find that the run is late this year or some other band has already claimed the good spots and you get stuck with the shitty spots. Or on route to the elk hunting camp you get stuck in three days of torrential rain and hail and your whole band and all their belongings are thoroughly soaked and people are getting hypothermic because there is no dry wood to get warm and dry all your stuff out.

We are talking about walking everywhere aren’t we. With a band of people including elders women and kids right. Not piling into the minivan.

#31

[quote=“heyvictor, post:30, topic:414”]How about practicing being able to clearly think things through or problem solve while also dealing with extreme discomfort, hunger or stress.

Or maybe practice being kind to others, being able to take others needs or points of view into consideration, being able to compromise and come to consensus decisions while also dealing with not having eaten for a couple of days or being very cold and wet or possibly being in danger. [/quote]

Not to be overly flippant, but sounds a bit like the first couple years of my marriage. :smiley:

[quote=“heyvictor, post:30, topic:414”]These are all things that real life hunter gatherers have to deal with.
Are these the other kind of “primitive skills” ya’ll are talking about?[/quote]

These are definitely in the list, I’d say there’s more there, but this is a good chunk of it.

Actually this is why US brought up the difference between horticulture and agriculture. Modifying your environment is pretty much a given, but that doesn’t equate to agriculture (or being farmers). Illustration: tribes in the Amazon were horticulturalists, with field/crop rotations proceeding on decades long timelines (40-50 years) that built a remarkably fertile soil and diverse ecology, but agriculturalists passing thru, used to food systems degrading soil and removing diversity, just thought it was all “wild” forest. Believe me when I say that we’re not saying we don’t, or that we shouldn’t, manage our environment.

#32

So I must ask jhereg where does your food come from? At this point if your not gathering, hunting, or growing it (or a combination of all that) I don’t see how a person can survivie in todays world without alterting their environment by having it shipped from wherever and that having it shipped is much more altering of their environment than a person growing (organically) what they need to stay alive.

#33

well, i’m growing some, gathering some and buying the rest. i’m not claiming to be eating completely sustainably at this point.

as to environmental modification, my own objection isn’t that it occurs so much as what the effects are. tilling, monocropping, & chemical pesticides/fertilizers are fairly harmful, but there’s many ways to positively impact your enviroment that produces food. certainly the food that i buy that’s transported from far away is harmful, if no other reason than because it uses fossil fuels.

finally, i ain’t accusing you of anything, but it kinda sounds like you think i am :slight_smile:

#34

not meaning to come off that way. I’m getting to know folks and I’m always interested in where the rubber meets the road between ideals/philosophy/belief and between chopping wood and hauling water, as it were.

The bitch about coming to ones truth is that one is then obligated to act responsibly or risk being a hippocrite, which I admittedly am at times…

#35

Haha. Yeah. I spent all day on my moms property today filling in a ditch, hauling sandy-loam, and building boxes for her blueberries. I even ate some of the eggs her (OMG) domesticated chickens laid! I’m such a fucking hypocrite! Haha. They were good eggs (thank you chickens!) I’m slowly convincing my mom and step-dad to let me perma-culture their yard. We’re going to make a yard plan this winter… but first I have to get that greenhouse built next week… order and install rain barrels, build a compost bin and a worm bin… build two more blue-berry boxes… blah blah blah… Also, there’s Willems yard too…

#36

I’m with you on this one, for sure. I think it’s a big part of why I tend to dislike Internet forums-- on a forum you inherently can only really discuss things. There’s so much to do and learn and real people to interact with that forums get old really fast-- unless there’s someone that lives far away whose relationship I value.

There is such an incredible amount of stuff to learn and do, it’s hard for me to imagine ever having more than a moment to catch my breath-- the world is so fascinating and just keeping myself clothed and fed the way I want to be is a fulltime job, no doubt about it.

I just got in touch with Lotta Rahme, and she is sending me her new book on Fishskin tanning which took a while to track down. It’s in swedish, though, so I will have to hire someone to translate it for me, but I don’t care if it costs me $200 to get it translated, I’m sure it is pure gold, and I am definitely looking forward to tanning the 200 salmon skins I have fleshed and dried, sitting in my basement…

#37

cool! i didn’t even know you could tan fish skins.

#38

Great discussion gentlemen. While I don’t feel I currently have a dog in this fight, I’m finding it refreshing to see an ernest debate. I’ve learnt a bit so far just as a spectator observering the thinkers and the doers. I stated in another post I’m more of a student of survivalism who has an intrest in primitive and pre industrial technology. Until recently I overlooked the social aspects. I guess unless I want to die a lonely hermit in some cave, I had better start finding like minded people in my area.

#39

Actually, the most valuable thing I ever learned from rewilding that, when you are trying to create a new way to live in the face of active hostility, being a hypocrit is acceptable. Truth is, most if not all of us are experimenting in what is possible, and we’re trying to find answers, not supply them. Purity is overrated.

#40

Absolutely Andrew.
Very little of what I see people here wanting to do is new. There’s a lot of people that ya’ll could learn from out there. People who may not totally be into your trip but who really know their stuff about the things they are into. They might be folks at Rabbitstick or on PaleoPlanet or at a Rainbow gathering or it might be the local animal control officer or the logger who lives down the street or your redneck deer hunting uncle or the local taxidermist or meat cutter or your grandma who puts away a hundred jars of canned food every year. They may not be “Anarcho-Primitivists” or what ever you call yourselves but they are the salt of the earth and a lot of them would just think it’s pretty freakin cool that a young person would want to learn what they know.
But I have to say that the self-righteous rude boy attitude that I see floatin’ around here would put most of 'em right off.

Man if you went to a meat cutter who cuts wild game this fall, when hunting season is in full swing and said, “I want to learn what you know, I’ll do what ever you want me to do so I can learn how to skin and cut meat.” Most of them around here would think it was great. They might not be on the same wavelength as you when it comes to socio-political discourse but in the month or two of deer season you would really learn how it’s done. Way better than spending the same amount of time on an internet forum. And they’d probably turn you on to a bunch of wild meat and hides if you want 'em.
At the end of it all, spending time with those people, if you were open to it, you would learn a lot about all kinds of people and how we are really all the same instead of the divisive, us and them thing that people like George Bush loves to create and foster.

#41

heyvictor, couldn’t agree with you more.

I’ve learned so much about fishing from hanging out with regular fisherman, sitting down and listening to their stories. There’s no good book I’ve encountered on how to fish the ocean, especially primitively, and spending time with the old-timers is fruitful in many ways other than just pure skills- it’s fun to hear about different times, other points of view, and how to do things the conventional way.

I find just about everybody amazing once I can get past their intellect to the person inside. So far, anyway!

#42

Hello Folks,

Please see my “Clearing up Assumptions” thread.

#43

God, would I love to do what you suggest, heyvictor, and 5 years ago That’s exactly what I would have done. The very thing that prevents me is the thing I wish to escape through learning: my 8 to 6 job.

Like I’ve said elsewhere, I only spend time on the internet talking instead of doing when I am at work. It’s time I couldn’t use for practical skill learning anyway, and so it’s time stolen back for me, not time lost.

So I’m an 8 to 6 corporate office worker (middle management, even) who gets most of his food from a store. Obviously my claims to be a “rewilder” are pretension at best. But like I’ve learned, it’s OK to be a hypocrite, it’s OK to go slow, even a single step back from being a consumer is a positive thing. I don’t need to be a perfect primitive tomorrow, and I shouldn’t push myself or my family too far to fast. And talking about the philosophy during the day, even when I can’t live up to it, keeps me sane and gives me hope that eventually, I will be able to escape.

"Walking the Talk"
"Walking the Talk"
#44

Damnit, Andrew, every time your post, I respect you more and more.

I totally agree about having to throw hypocrisy out the window. “Rewild” is a verb. I do what I can when I can based on the situation I currently live in. If that makes me a hypocrite in someone else’s eyes, I feel okay with that because I have to chose my path for myself.

cool! i didn't even know you could tan fish skins.

Yet another reason to love the forum. :slight_smile:

But I have to say that the self-righteous rude boy attitude that I see floatin' around here would put most of 'em right off.

Could you tell me more about the “self-righteous rude boy” attitude you see, heyvictor? Feel free to PM me if you don’t want to voice these things openly. But I feel like you maybe have misinterpreted something somewhere, and I don’t want you to mistake something for rude when it wasn’t intended that way.

Like I've said elsewhere, I only spend time on the internet talking instead of doing when I am at work. It's time I couldn't use for practical skill learning anyway, and so it's time stolen back for me, not time lost.

You and I ride in the same boat, Andrew. For an analytical cerebralist like myself who wants to get out there and do things, this place functions as the perfect springboard for new experiments and trials in rewilding. I can spend my 8-5 here, filling my brain and then put my body to work when I get home.

#45
Man if you went to a meat cutter who cuts wild game this fall, when hunting season is in full swing and said, "I want to learn what you know, I'll do what ever you want me to do so I can learn how to skin and cut meat." Most of them around here would think it was great. They might not be on the same wavelength as you when it comes to socio-political discourse but in the month or two of deer season you would really learn how it's done. Way better than spending the same amount of time on an internet forum. And they'd probably turn you on to a bunch of wild meat and hides if you want 'em.

Great advice. No better way then to be up front and go out and ask and learn from experienced people. Most of the time people are more than willing to help out if you are willing to work. That is exactly what I have been contacting people about the past few weeks, apprenticing with game meat cutters and learning more hands-on how to skin and cut up large wild game. I learned how to skin and cut up goats from watching and helping experienced folks do it and found that the more goats we skinned and the more times I got to participate and watch the more I got the hang of it. I also found that learning from an experienced tanner was the most practical way to learn how to tan for a beginner. Books have their place but are no substitute for hands-on with an experienced teacher, especially when it comes to outdoor skills.

#46

I think they’re good for waterproof clothing. People in the lower Amur River region made boots out of them.

#47

I have doubts that any in this communication really want the “stone age technology”, visible or invisible, being apart from civilization. But was the paleolithic way of living really so sustainable, as was stated? I will say, there was sustainability in the human population numbers being so low. It was not more sustainable for animals being hunted as opposed to getting food from growing vegetation. Where indigenous people still hunt, their population numbers are low for the area they inhabit. But areas where there is wildlife are diminishing in size, as civilization encroaches everywhere. Rewilding with hunting in these situations is not helping for sustainability. I think though paleolithic living worked, it is too big a change for people to really change to, from the domestication they have been through. Civilization will not work out, with the unsustainability it cannot continue, and will face its end, very possibly sooner than any of us could be ready for. My emphasis is on the most sustainable ways people can come to, at the soonest it may be. I would be foraging and growing things for what is needed, for this most sustainable way possible being needed.

#48

The ultimate goal of any serious bushcrafter or survivalist is to acquire “stone age” skills of the neolithic period. That is to say, begin their wilderness adventures with high quality, factory manufactured equipment purchased from outfitter stores and slowly progress towards being able to construct that same equipment with their own hands via materials provided by nature. The only politics I’ve ever concerned myself with in regards to this quest are the modern politics of containment and control. Modern society, especially government, doesn’t like the idea of fully independent and untraceable citizens. Thus the difficulty in finding large swaths of land not under constant patrol by representatives thereof. As to any religious (codified mythology) aspect, nature can be trusted to instill a sufficient spirituality in the individual that far surpasses anything humans have invented to date. I’ve never felt “religious” in wilderness. But I’ve experienced an extreme spiritual connection with the natural world. Finally, I’m still not entirely clear on what you mean by “Rewilding vs. Primitive Skills and Survivalism.” In my mind and from my experience, the two are inextricably linked. You can’t “rewild” without extended periods of direct contact with nature and you can’t do that without the proper skills and equipment necessary to survive in the wild. Ergo, one must concern themselves with primitive skills and survivalist techniques before attempting to reconnect with the natural world.

1 Like