there is only place for spirit! i find it really too easy for me to gloss over my spirit and then become disenchanted with most of my life. i have too work hard at consistently showing gratitude. but i think spirit work should be hard, especially with all the conditioning that we animals have gone through. we have been lead to believe that our souls are to be fostered and maintained in monasteries, temples and churches. and then only on sundays or saturdays or holidays when banks close.
its unconditioning this stuff that makes my spiritual work hard. i practice yoga cause the funny bendy stuff makes me giggle but the idea of vegetarianism further separates me from the deer and elk rather than connect me to them.
i dunno, i went on a bit of a rant. anyways, i think spirit is all that fits. when it is a crushed and defeated spirit, the world collapses around it and further suffocates an already drowning being. when the spirit is glowing and grinning nature expands around it giving the proper space for growth.
i am going to go stand on one leg and fall over when the sparrows come by again
you make a good point, but part of the limits I’m talking about aren’t just me. even tho’, i have little reason to think some parties would care anymore, there’s simply no way i’m bringing into a public forum. and even for those that are reasonably just me:
I don't have this experience just yet, I'm a beginner so to speak. But an example might look like this:I took, I bailed on, I went, I got all human and stuff, I got off track, I fucked, I got fucked, I wish, My spouse wishes, My kids wish, My head sucks, I love, I want, I perceive, Me, and on and on.
those aren’t quite the experiences i’m talking about.
don’t get me wrong, i know this comment prolly comes off as snarky, but it isn’t meant to be. what you said beared saying, and i’m glad you said it.
I understand. I could stand to think a little more before saying things like that anyway. I can be a bit indelicate. And it isn’t warranted.
no, please understand, i didn’t take offense, i just wanted to clarify.
[quote=“BlueHeron, post:7, topic:676”]I’ve stopped doing it [opening my spirit to the world] UNLESS I am in nature with people that I know well and trust.[/quote]
And it’s why I won’t choose to rewild my spirit anymore unless I’m physically removed from civ.
I’m happy to say that I had some time to move in spiritual ways (sounds corny, but I have no better words!) when I was camping on the Olympic Peninsula recently. When I try to create those same experiences in a city, I just feel stunted by the urban social environment. Fortunately I’m moving in a month! 
Another thing to add -
For me, a fundamental part of my rewilding process (reconnecting with my true wild nature and the wild world around me) is expanding my sense of “self” to include the land that I live on and all the other creatures that inhabit it with me. In Endgame DJ quoted a native person who said that it was “sharing the same skin” (or something to that effect ;)).
To me, spirit is a fundamental part of this. I know that I have “spirit” (or whatever one wants to call it) as part of my fundamental nature, and recognizing other creatures/the world as part of myself (or me as part of it - the same being) immediately makes me aware of the spirit inherent in the world and all living things.
[quote=“BlueHeron, post:18, topic:676”][quote author=BlueHeron link=topic=724.msg8052#msg8052 date=1202112426]
I’ve stopped doing it [opening my spirit to the world] UNLESS I am in nature with people that I know well and trust.
[/quote][quote]
And it’s why I won’t choose to rewild my spirit anymore unless I’m physically removed from civ.
[/quote]
I’m happy to say that I had some time to move in spiritual ways (sounds corny, but I have no better words!) when I was camping on the Olympic Peninsula recently. When I try to create those same experiences in a city, I just feel stunted by the urban social environment. Fortunately I’m moving in a month! :)[/quote]
I believe that when you are connected to spirit in a balanced, strong way, the location and surrounding is irrelevant. One of the goals I set for myself is being able to be in touch with spirit no matter where I am. I think a common misconception that people have about spirit is that there has to be a specific place, or book, or person, or ritual that connects them. People are constantly looking outside of themselves for spirit, when in my opinion, it’s all right here inside of us and with concentration and focus, we can access that anywhere and any time and fill our lives with spirit. But…I can certainly understand how difficult it is to feel in tune with spirit in a place so lacking of it. And it definitely helps to be somewhere you feel supported, safe and open.
For me, spirit has a lot to do with how I relate to the world (connection or “one-ness”), but it’s a two-way street. When you open to the world, your spirit becomes a part of it, and it a part of you. And I’m sorry to say so, but there is no way in hell I want the people in my neighborhood to be “part of me.” I don’t hate them or anything, but they have messed-up priorities. I don’t feel that there’s anything of lasting value I can learn from them.
Hm, that seems a bit harsh to me. If you’re honestly so stirred up about simple neighbors( who probably aren’t the way they are by choice, but by how they were placed in this world, as most people are) then perhaps they will be your greatest teachers. I always find that the things that bother me the most and make me lose sight of compassion and love are the things I need to work most at, and that teach me the most.
People around you are mirrors, when you see something you don’t like about them, it’s usually a quality in yourself that you’re not accepting. At least that’s what I’ve found…
I always feel better about people that bother me if I just let go and accept them as fellow human beings, and when I am able to love them despite their flaws, then spirit is strong with me. I think you can learn alot that way.
Yea, it’s also a great way to avoid forming a positive and critical analysis of dysfunctional and toxic personality traits. Righteous anger and love for the world should both play vital roles in this process of rewilding.
“Yea, it’s also a great way to avoid forming a positive and critical analysis of dysfunctional and toxic personality traits. Righteous anger and love for the world should both play vital roles in this process of rewilding.”
As long as you don’t permanently attach those dysfunctional and toxic traits to a person and end up unable to get past the labels you’ve saddled them with. This seems to involve a lot of assumptions on the part of the person doing the critical analysis.
Righteous, hmm, that word scares me. What does this righteous anger look like?
I think it’s safe to say that knowing where you do or do not belong, and choosing to move towards surroundings that speak to you, is a big part of what rewilding is all about. My choice not to get close to the people in my neighborhood isn’t a judgment or label I’ve placed on them, instead it is based on the observation that the way they live is part of the larger society that I have decided to reject, and for good reason. When I say “they have messed up priorities” (to use a real example) it’s because I’ve looked at the choices they’ve made and the culture they belong to and I see that it’s just more of the same old, same old, civilization dominating the land. If I don’t want to be a part of that “dysfunctional and toxic” way of life, it doesn’t mean that I hold any disrespect towards the individuals themselves. Of course they’re fellow human beings. But I get to choose which human beings I want to have closer to me in my life, and which ones I’d prefer more distance from. If I don’t make those distinctions then I won’t ever experience the difference between a civilized culture and a rewilding culture.
An excellent caveat to my remark. People change, sometimes, and we can’t let our own feelings of “I’m so primitiveXcore!” get in the way of correctly identifying if someone has ‘detoxified’.
Hmm, you’re right on that one. Maybe I should have used something clearer, less loaded? Justified anger? Constructive anger?
I’ve had ‘friends’ (if you can call those superficial relationships friendships) with whom this was an issue. They perpetuate just about every unhealthy, dysfunctional civilized mindset you can think of, and because of this I’ve slowly started to cut off ties when I can in an effort for a new “tribe”. I find, unfortunately, that the more time I spend with them, the more I hate them. Really hate them. I wish I could help change them, help them see how fucked up their lives and relationships are, but ultimately I can’t and I can’t torture myself trying. Cutting off these ties has been the only way I can keep myself from seething with hatred at them.
As for respect? I respect their right to be alive, but beyond that they haven’t done anything to earn respect. I don’t recommend giving respect when it isn’t earned. If, a year or five from now, I talk to them again and they’ve changed, then the situation will be a happier one.
I dunno… if I could go back in time over 100 years ago to the plains of North America and talk to a child in a reservation school, and if he said to me, “I hate the people who killed my relatives, I hate the people who took me away from my family, and I hate the people here at this school who are telling me what to think and how to speak and who are keeping me here against my will,” then I would think that his hate was an absolutely appropriate response. I would probably hate those people too just hearing his story. Hate’s just a really strong emotion, and I while I believe that people need to have solid reasons to hate someone or something, at the same time I don’t think that hate contradicts spirit or gets in the way of spirit.
My neighbors, I don’t know them well enough to hate them. Even if I got to know them, I probably wouldn’t hate them, I would probably just be really frustrated with them. And while I don’t disrespect them (as I said before), there’s not a lot about them that I respect either, beyond understanding that they have the right to exist and also that I can’t blame them for their way of life as it’s probably the only way they’ve ever known how to survive in society. A society which is toxic, hence their behavior is toxic in a lot of ways. If I can see that, then I’m not going to embrace it or support it.
Whoa, Selkie, your post disappeared… well, if you are still interested, my perspectives on hate, spirit, and toxicity is above.
I completely agree with this, I guess it’s just so hard for me myself to hang onto my feelings of hate without feeling unhappy and overwhelmed. I mean, I was driven by that same sort of anger for such a long time, being an activist for Genocide Awareness and such efforts. I’ve met those children, and it’s so hard to look at their situation and not completely be overtaken by hatred. However, when those children grow up with that anger and don’t learn how to forgive and heal their wounds, they grow up with festering anger that they dont know what to do with. If anything, when we are angry about those things we should use that as our power to try to make the world better from everyone. Not just run away and let the anger sit inside of ourselves. Sure we don’t have to pitch a tent with the “wrong do-ers” and share our efforts, but we can at least not hold onto our grudges towards them and see their humanity. I think life will give them what they need to learn and if they make wrong choices the universe will naturally consequence them. There’s no point in us holding negative energy because we are choosing something different. Heaven knows I would give everything for things to be different, for those children to not have to go through that, but I truly believe it is all meant to be and that we can’t change it, we can only learn from it and spread love and acceptance.
(Sorry, I kind of deleted my last post because I didn’t know if I was stepping on toes or not, and I certainly don’t want to make anyone feel wrong at all or anything. I mean, I just hope everyone reading this knows I don’t know any better than anyone else and I’m not claiming to know anything. Simply speaking from my heart and from experience of life.
I’m wondering, can a person feel strong hate without making it the motivation for everything they do? I don’t really have a sure answer for that.
It’s really tragic that children, and lots of adults too, are put in situations where somebody or something is persistently hurting and abusing them. There is no easy answer to how they can deal with it in a way that will change the situation. If they can, of course, they need to find a way out. That’s why women’s shelters exist. But as long as it is going on, I wonder how much good forgiveness would do. It seems that it would just help perpetuate the cycle of abuse. When somebody is forgiven and given another chance but at the same time they aren’t being made to change their behavior… well, maybe forgiveness will help the person being hurt to have inner peace in the meantime, but it’s not a very sustainable approach.
After the person or people are out of the exploitative or abusive situation, then they can find a way to come to terms with it, and possibly even forgive the people who hurt them, or at least learn not to hold a grudge, so that they can get on with their lives without that festering hate. But as long as the hurt is going on, if they can change the situation, hate towards one’s abusers serves a lot of useful purposes. It can help the victims distance themselves from the abusers and avoid a kind of Stockholm Syndrome, and it can also motivate a strategy for direct action against violence.
I can’t remember exactly what you said in your last post, but I don’t remember getting the feeling that you were stepping on any toes… and I’m a very sensitive person. (It’s one of my ongoing “projects” to learn not to take everything so personally.) Your opinions and perspectives are just as valuable as everyone elses! If somebody counters a post of yours with an opinion to the contrary, as long as they’re not being snide or malicious, it probably just means that they want to explore the difference in opinion in a respectful way. That’s how things usually happen on this message board, I’m happy to say.
There are appropriate times, it seems, for anger, love, acceptance, and forgiveness. The key is not becoming consumed by hate, nor forgiving too easily.
I don’t believe forgiveness has to mean that you give someone another chance, I think forgiveness can have a much deeper power, especially personally. Like, if I can’t forgive others, how can I forgive myself? I think not forgiving can perpetuate problems into ones own life because one doesn’t forgive themself either.
Forgiveness works both personally (to the person forgiving) and to the forgiven person.
I also agree though and see that forgiveness has that power you mentioned. I don’t think forgiveness negates aggressive/hostile behaviour either.
After the person or people are out of the exploitative or abusive situation, then they can find a way to come to terms with it, and possibly even forgive the people who hurt them, or at least learn not to hold a grudge, so that they can get on with their lives without that festering hate.
Though, when people say ‘forgive and forget’, the forget part may help perpetuate the cycle as in “oh that won’t ever happen again”, or some other coping method, though if you really feel a person has made up to you in a way then I think the forget part may come in play to put trust back into the relationship.
[quote=“Fenriswolfr, post:32, topic:676”][quote]
After the person or people are out of the exploitative or abusive situation, then they can find a way to come to terms with it, and possibly even forgive the people who hurt them, or at least learn not to hold a grudge, so that they can get on with their lives without that festering hate.
[/quote]
Though, when people say ‘forgive and forget’, the forget part may help perpetuate the cycle as in “oh that won’t ever happen again”, or some other coping method, though if you really feel a person has made up to you in a way then I think the forget part may come in play to put trust back into the relationship.[/quote]
Presumably, it wouldn’t happen again, because the people/person would have gotten out of the bad situation, for good. There wouldn’t be any chance to try to build trust with the violent people/person again. Sorry I didn’t make my thoughts clear.