Feminism w/r/t Rewilding

Yes! I feel that the feminism of civilization (please ignore if this doesn't fit you! I realize many flavors of feminism flourish out there) that seeks "equality" sociopathically manipulates women to want the same thing men have, the money and power and career status that our culture identifies as wealth

There are many different theories or strains or schools of thought within feminism, but they can be classified several ways.

First, they can be divided between what is sometimes called Liberal or Equity Feminism, which seeks “equality” for women within the existing system, and various kinds of feminism that seek to change the system in some way.

Equity Feminism, of course, has by far been the most successful brand of feminism. It not only does not threaten the system, but actually strengthens capitalism in various ways. First, the economy grows the more life functions are brought into the money economy. Growing food in the garden, cooking for your family, or trading babysitting with your neighbor do not increase the GNP, but buying microwave dinners and paying for childcare do. Secondly, movements for “equality” that promote individualism and the atomization of society help to break down social networks and lock people into dependence on money to survive. Libertarian Feminism also belongs to this school of thought.

The schools that hold that feminism should change society in some way include Marxist or Socialist Feminism, Radical Feminism, Anarcha-Feminism, Eco-Feminism, Goddess and Pagan Feminism. In turn, these can be distinguished by two orientations: Marxist and Radical Feminism focus on the oppression of women as the foundation of class oppression and exploitation (and the patriarchal nuclear family as the model for society as a whole) while Eco-Feminism and Goddess Feminism focus more on the civilized suppression of feminine values such as cooperation and sharing, and Anarcha-Feminism tending to combine both of these.

Another way that different schools of feminist thought might be classified is a “nature/nurture” division, with most forms of Radical and Marxist Feminism holding that gender differences are entirely cultural and should be abolished, while Gender Feminists hold that women have some intrinsic differences from men that should be respected. (The theory that all gender differences are culturally programmed is fading away.)

There are other differences and schools of thought in feminism, but all of them take for granted certain civilized assumptions that a Tribal Feminism would not.

One key characteristic of civilizations is that kinship becomes linear, a line of inheritance from parents to children, and each line is separate. This makes the nuclear family (father, mother, offspring) the kinship group, and separates each family from each other (even if you keep in touch with your cousins, you and they do not take care of each other as in a tribe). Each family is private property (through most of civilized history, women and children have more or less literally been the property of the patriarchal male).

I talked about the burden this places on women in my other post, but here is another aspect of it. With the nuclear family (dad, mom, kids) the basic kinship unit of society, the foundational kinship bond upon which the whole family depends is the bond between husband and wife. And if the bond between husband and wife is broken, the family goes into a crisis. The children often pay a great price, and they often become a burden to the single parent left raising them… or left paying for their childcare while he or she works at a job.

Before the women’s liberation movement, the stability of marriage and family was ensured by not giving women any other choice than staying in the June Cleaver prison-box. In US society, fifty years ago, divorce was a disgrace, out-of-wedlock children an even bigger disgrace, and a single or divorced woman would have a difficult time making a living. Now divorce is easy, bearing children out of wedlock is accepted, and women have plenty of alternatives to staying in a relationship that is a prison.

So the one kinship bond that this society is built on, the marriage/spousal bond, breaks easily now, and so socially this society is falling apart.

This is one of the internal contradictions that is bringing this civilization down. For the capitalist economic system, the more that social systems disintegrate, and the more that each individual is left floundering for himself or herself, the more the economy benefits. An atomized society both has higher consumption rates (every house has its own television or three) and locks people more securely into wage-slavery. But on the other hand, social breakdown leads more crime, drug-addiction, and other social problems, as well as to people questioning their situation and rebelling against it. (The rise of fundamentalism came out of fear of the social breakdown.) Police, prisons, and all the instruments of coercion and repression unknown to tribal society become necessary to keep control.

I don’t have a ton of time today to say everything I want to say, as I really haven’t had a ton of time lately in general.

But a few things:
Sacha, I think we may be talking past each other. I have come to the conclusion that I misread your original intention, and for that I apologize. But I think you have put some words into my mouth, too. At some point later if I feel I still want to point them out, I will go over it in more detail.

I don’t see feminism as a “I want what he’s got” mentality. It is not purely economic. And obviously, outside of our society’s economic system, economically-driven feminism is pointless. Mainstream culture has made many feminist movements into economic quibbling, true. But that is not where I come from. I think many people mischaracterize feminism because of how it has to adapt to our warped society instead of looking at its original impulse. I care about equality because when men and women are allowed to believe that they are inherently unequal, or should be unequal, horrible things are allowed to happen. Women and children are devalued, abused, raped, etc.

Well, the only words I think I put into your mouth were “I do not agree with BH’s apparent conviction that a feminism based on tribalism has no relevance to rewilders and no place among the schools of feminist thought.”

(And I was careful there to use the word “apparent”).

I would really like to hear what you have to say, especially if the above is a misinterpretation (or even if it isn’t).

I don’t understand how, where, or why you disagree with anything I have written here, but I do want to understand.

Sacha, you have neatly explained and put into a larger context something that has been bothering me for years: the way that our culture segregates children. We’ve created this “adults only” society in which most people have never even held a baby unless they are parents. Children go off to school, daycare, or playgroup so that they don’t disturb the adults (the important ones, anyway. The ones who care for the children are marginalized). This leaves some adults with the impression that they have a fundamental right to never be in the presence of children. Someone told me once about a wedding they were invited to where children were not welcome. A wedding!!! It blew my mind.

Collective mothering helps keep birth rates down -- it is one of the ignored reasons for low birth rates among hunter-gatherers.

I’d like to hear more about this, if you have more to tell.

the way that our culture segregates children. We've created this "adults only" society in which most people have never even held a baby unless they are parents. Children go off to school, daycare, or playgroup so that they don't disturb the adults ([b]the important ones, anyway. The ones who care for the children are marginalized[/b]). This leaves some adults with the impression that they have a fundamental right to never be in the presence of children.

Yes. And another effect of the segregation of children is they remain infantilized, even as adults. That is why most adults in this society depend on authority figures to tell them what to do.

I want to talk about the effect of age-segregation on children too (all eight-year-olds in one grade, all nine-year-olds in another) but that should probably go in the children section.

Quote Collective mothering helps keep birth rates down -- it is one of the ignored reasons for low birth rates among hunter-gatherers.

I’d like to hear more about this, if you have more to tell.

Well, let us say that you and all seven women in your immediate family group all love children and you would like to have lots of them so that your children can have playmates and you can enjoy the laughter of playing children. You love babies and would like to have a new baby every year or two. So among the seven of you, you have a total of twelve kids in fifteen years. That means you all have twelve kids, because all of the kids belong to all the mothers, and you all get to take care of a new baby every year or so, and the children are never a burden to any one woman. But the total number of children is much smaller than if each of you created your own separate nuclear family.

I want to talk about population dynamics maybe soon. There are some serious and even harmful flaws in Daniel Quinn’s population dynamics.

Sacha,

I want to talk about population dynamics maybe soon. There are some serious and even harmful flaws in Daniel Quinn's population dynamics.

Since I don’t have the time to check out every thread here and I have dial-up internet service, could you please PM me when you decide to talk about this.

Thank you,

Curt

Very interesting discussion, thank you everyone! As an activist I have spent quite a lot of time fighting around women’s issues, so I am very interested in the subject of feminism & rewilding.

When talking about future rewilding communities, I see the key issue (regarding feminism) as one of freedom of choice for women. Whether or not gender roles exist in indigenous societies, and whether or not they constitute a healthy choice for future communities, to me is secondary to the question of whether or not women in our future rewilding communities will WANT to adhere to gender roles.

I personally do not have any problem with gender roles in any community, as long as no women (or men) feel compelled or constrained to abide by them. IOW, as long as women and men participate in them of their own free will.

While I would feel happy to participate in raising children, I have no desire to see my life limited to this activity. Nor would I accept it if only men were allowed to hunt, defend the community, or communicate with outsiders. In fact, I would refuse to remain a part of any community that attempted to dictate what I could and could not do with my time.

I think it really comes down to a question of freedom. I had the impression that one of the key qualities of primitive, tribal life is the ability of all its members to spend their time doing ONLY the activities they voluntarily choose to do. If no one wants to gather wood one day, then no one does - if they all instead choose to pick berries, then that is what they would do. I don’t understand how this jives with restrictive gender roles, for example, where if a woman decided she would like to go hunting one day, others would prevent her from doing so. The only way I could understand it is if everyone accepted the traditions of their society so completely that no one had any desire to do things outside the traditional gender roles.

If historically the latter scenario holds true, then that right there means that any future society growing out of the ashes of civilization would of necessity NOT have gender roles, because the majority of women would not choose to adhere to gender roles because of tradition, since entrenched traditions would not exist yet.

Well, I can’t imagine anyone in this movement advocating restrictive gender roles. I think that a consensus for gender role freedom can probably be taken for granted.

But do you have any comments on the feminism based on tribal principles, discussed in this thread?

Mai group seems to be gravitating twards gender roles, rather than away from. This isnt becuase ai or another person thinks it should be so (on the contrary - ai think it might be nice to not have gender roles), but because the (so far only) woman in the group prefers it. This is how ai found this out: we were talking about hunting, when she said that she didnt really like hunting all that much and that she would rather just gather plant foods and trap small animals, while caring for the young folk. Ai was blown away! That was more or less exactly the typical gender role for women in many hunter/gatherer societies. But she hadnt studied anything mentioning gender roles in tribal humans at all! Ai think thats some major intuition there.

That’s why I said I think no one is “advocating restrictive gender roles,” not that no one is following gender roles. “Advocating” would mean saying that people should follow particular roles, and “restrictive” roles would mean those that restrict people’s choices. But in a natural intuitive way, a lot of people are going to just find certain inclinations expressing themselves without any prescription.

While I would feel happy to participate in raising children, I have no desire to see my life limited to this activity.
In my experience, this scenario applies more to civilized mothers than the indigenous example Sacha described:
So among the seven of you, you have a total of twelve kids in fifteen years. That means you all have twelve kids, because all of the kids belong to all the mothers, and you all get to take care of a new baby every year or so, and [b]the children are never a burden to any one woman.[/b]
I'm a stay-at-home mom. I don't have my parents, brother, in-laws, etc. living nearby. In the absence of a support network, I pretty much bring my kids everywhere, which means I can only participate in child-friendly activities. In Sacha's example, each mother is backed up by six other mothers, which would give the individual mothers greater freedom to participate in community affairs than I have. The scenario Sacha described sounds a lot less restrictive than what we have right now.

I agree, “civilized motherhood” has grown into an unsustainable scenario that sets the stage for burnt-out moms, hothouse kids, and young adults who can’t relate to kids at all. Starfish, I wonder how your situation–absence of support network–feels for you? I would give an arm and a leg to live in a world with a broader sense of kinship and certainty of shared values, where all adults present take responsibility for all the children, all the time. I think “mental health” and spirits of everyone involved would skyrocket.

I found this in a zine called: As Soon As You’re Born, They Make You Feel Small: Self-Determination for Children

[u]Endless Mothering[/u] ...Women are without question the primary carers of children in our society. They bear the brunt of this responsibility and yet the resources and assistance available to them are pitiful. . .Mothers are expected to respond to their child's every need be it emotional, physical or intellectual.

They are, in short, entrusted with their child’s "normal’ development and suffer enormous guilt for any lapses or failures. The more needy and dependent the child, the more is expected from mothers, the more the terrain of motherhood expands. It is considered ‘healthy’ for a mother and child to have a vritually exclusive relationship during the child’s early years.

Clearly, the greater children’s autonomy, the less work for mothers. This can be witnessed where children have relationships with other adults, who are also ‘responsible’ for them, or where children have access to safe outdoor spaces. In societies where children work and care for younger children, they quickly become co-workers of mothers and fathers. It is only recently, in the west, that mothering has been conceived as full time job.

I think living in a rewilded culture with a healthier and more supportive expression of gender roles, such as care of children, than what we usually experience would dissolve the Terrifying Specter of Gender Roles quite a bit.

I find it really fascinating how so many topics bubbling up right now overlap and interlock–child care, age segregation, women’s community, population dynamics, gender roles, birth rates.

I think this underscores the deeply layered magic of cultures that work.

In my experience, this scenario applies more to civilized mothers than the indigenous example Sacha described:[/quote]

I totally agree. And actually, I’ve been thinking that if I ever were to have kids, I would only want to if I lived in a true community, where childrearing was shared by all. IOW, I would never want to become a mother in civilization, because I feel that the burdens are just too great (even if the mom doesn’t have to work at the same time - I can’t even imagine how women manage THAT).

What I would have an issue with WRT gender roles in a community, is more vague - more a wariness about gender roles even being expected in any way. Let’s say that of the 20 women in the community, 19 prefer to forage and hang out with the kids, and a similar majority has in previous generations so that “role” has come to be considered normal for women, and expected.

Even if the roles weren’t enforced, restricting people to them regardless of their free will, there is still a huge gray area, ranging from no expectations/everything considered normal, to very strong expectations & peer pressure to conform to what is considered “normal” behavior. IOW, there is a gray area where a behavior is considered to be common/uncommon on the one hand, and “right”/“wrong” on the other hand (what is considered “proper”).

So even if the gender roles weren’t restrictive, and I were allowed to greet outsiders along with the men (for example) if I chose to, I think I would still be uncomfortable if I felt regarded as “abnormal”, or “deviant” in any way. And I think that if gender roles exist, this attitude would also exist to one degree or another.

I guess I don’t see a clear line between gender roles that are enforced and imposed on people, and gender roles that are merely expected where many disapprove of those who don’t adhere. Either way there is social pressure to conform to the roles regardless of free will, it is just a matter of degree. And I absolutely would not want to feel any kind of pressure to do something other than what I freely choose to do, as long as my behaviors are still contributing to the tribe’s well-being.

I think that’s why I’m not really comfortable with the idea of certain “roles” being defined according to gender. I think equality and personal freedom would prevent this - if there were no “gender roles” in a society, a majority of women may still choose to hang out with kids (for example), causing the same result as if there were gender roles, but happening instead by accident.

So I guess it all depends on what is meant by the term “gender roles”. Is it just a social phenomenon of most women enjoying foraging and most men enjoying hunting, even if this just happens by accident (of everyone’s free, uncoerced choice)? Or is it more specific, referring to a cultural attitude of certain behaviors being expected (or even demanded) of each gender? The latter is what I have a problem with, not the former (so if others were using the former definition, then I apologize for talking past you!)

Jessica

[quote=“bereal, post:33, topic:875”]So I guess it all depends on what is meant by the term “gender roles”. Is it just a social phenomenon of most women enjoying foraging and most men enjoying hunting, even if this just happens by accident (of everyone’s free, uncoerced choice)? Or is it more specific, referring to a cultural attitude of certain behaviors being expected (or even demanded) of each gender? The latter is what I have a problem with, not the former (so if others were using the former definition, then I apologize for talking past you!)
Jessica[/quote]

I could be wrong, but my understanding is that the former (free, uncoerced choice) largely prevailed/prevails. Granted, I’m no anthropologist by any stretch…

I wonder how your situation--absence of support network--feels for you?
Thanks for your interest Yarrow Dreamer. I tried to reply to this last night, but it sounded whiny and depressing, so I deleted it. The short answer is that I feel tired, sometimes overwhelmed, frustrated because my life feels limited to mothering and I have to suppress other aspects of myself; and guilty because I lose my temper way too easily these days. It's not my family's fault, but they bear the brunt of my bad temper anyway.

Waking up another topic that hasn’t been posted in for years…

Something I haven’t read in any of the previous posts is the importance of feeling valued in what you do. My husband is much taller and stronger than I. When some trees need to be cut, he will do the cutting and carrying of the big pieces, I will do the smaller ones.
Yes, on my own I could have done it too, but it would have taken me much longer (days, probably). Because my contribution is valued, we are both happy to have completed the work at hand together. Making a pot of coffee while he continues the heavier work gives us the time to enjoy coffee together, too.

Before we met, I have “proven” to myself that I can do this, that and the other on my own. That is good to know. But now I can also enjoy it when my husband says I don’t have to prove anything to him and he’ll happily do it. When we both feel valued for what we do, we enjoy each other and life.

I’m currently reading “The Caveman Mystique” by Martha McCaughey. It’s making me think about a more feminist informed rewilding. It seems that some men mistake rewilding to mean bolstering the false imagery of the caveman or barbarian or even “savage.” A hyper violent and hyper hetero-sexualized version of masculinity, using false claims from evolutionary biology to back it up. It’s a really great book, and I think anyone in the rewilding movement with an interest in gender should read it. I think it may help us avoid the pitfalls of projecting the patriarchy onto our DNA.

Here is an excerpt from an interview with the author:

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Another great piece by the author:

http://www.appstate.edu/~mccaugheym/evolutionarypsychologyresponse.htm

The links to pages 2 and 3 in the Martha McCaughey article are busted, but I just dug up working ones, and here they are:


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