Direction of this website?

**READ HERE FIRST**
#21

I don’t know how much my input counts as I will soon make a leap in my rewilding path as I move to a residence without the internet and electricity. hooray.

The last convo- here that really excited me occurred when we talked about Rewilding Havens. That idea did and still does possess a lot of fire, I think. I think the discussions ran into obstacles in that few folks here have access to land or, if they do, the means to host people.

Anyhow, I guess what really interests me on sites like these are opportunities to meet and network with like-minded folks as well as the possibility of hearing their stories in how they’re making it along their rewilding paths.

It’s interesting, because if someone were to move to North Carolina and wanted to plug into some anarchist scene, I could totally point them to this person or that, this place and that. But if someone came to NC and wanted to plug into a rewilding scene, I’d be like, Um… oh…errr… I hear there are weirdos in Asheville… I don’t know. I know there’s people here and there into some related things, but I don’t really think there’s a good group of people who see all of their primitive skills or bike skills or DIY skills or foraging skills or mushrooms skills or gardening skills or anarchist skills going into some kind of integrated whole. I want that to change and if rewild.info could play a part in that, that would rock.

edit:
A few more thoughts, since I’d already begun to ramble. I’d love to find ways to open up rewilding to a larger audience. As it stands I know vegans, farmers, biodiesel geeks, masseuses, anarchists, bikepunks, liberals, new-agers, stoners, etc. who could bring something rad to the rewilding table, but who’ve never heard the term or who might not voluntarily associate themselves with it because of some ideological obstacle, though they’ve got the heart for it I’m sure. I’d like to explore more ways to bridge the gaps with these people and seduce them into the Rewilding Renaissance.

edit #2:
part of me thinks changing the splash page to include a quick intro and invitation to rewilding might help anyone who stumbles upon this site unawares of what the hell rewilding entails… maybe rather than burdening one person with the task of writing such a thing, it could show a mosaic of quotes from different members talking about what rewilding is about for them to give a glimpse of the many angles of this thing.

#22

hrm…great topic, great points made. i’m totally new here, and haven’t ‘made friends’ yet but will take the risk of saying what intuitively washes over me when there are a few moments that i can steal to read here. it may come off as combative, but that is probably due to my lack of tact. this is, as you point out, your website and so you may toss me out of here for what i’m saying as you wish.

you have posted that you are ‘bored’ with certain lines of discussion. part of this lies with the difficulty that lies in every bulletin board i’ve ever seen or taken part in. the regulars that come daily discuss to death (or until they sputter out of enthusiasm) a particular issue, and therefore later comers who chime in on these topics, because they are still present as a record on the message board, are told that it’s all been said before and that the discussion is basically over. if you don’t want topics raised from the tombs, then put them truly to rest. it is your message board. archives can be ‘read only’, can’t they?

as for the ‘doomer’ feeling…i can’t help being paranoid in thinking that it is perhaps aimed at people like myself who have just BEGUN the journey that you are already well down the road on. people like myself, who have been struggling all their lives to wake up from this awful dream of what everyone else just calls ‘reality’ can’t help but point out each new realization, because it is like tasting something that they’ve never experienced before. they also can’t help but mourn for what is ending, perhaps mourning the death of their old selves along with it.

i well understand that the mourning is not, and should not be the focus of such a message board. perhaps, as someone who HAS already progressed over this territory, you can provide some useful info on how to get over that feeling, what might be on our list of ‘next’ firsts, and just generally provide a mentoring, guild atmosphere or guide over this totally new and sometimes scary territory. rewild skills? i don’t have 'em. couldn’t tell you what they were. it is nice to be able to get some idea of where to go next when you’re learning to walk.

you may not want to provide a forum that will be all things to all people. if not, direct us to where we should be rather than here taking up your bandwidth. a ‘mission statement’ would go far, and perhaps a clear indication of the idealogy and intent of where you would like to go with this site at the very top, where the donation thingie is right now, is a must. think of putting up a “Rewild Manifesto” on the page that leads us here, as in “if you don’t find some commonality with this perspective, you are not over 13 years of age…” etc.

another thing really is that the consensus seems to be that rewilding can only take place locally. in that way, the local flavour needs to be brought out as many former posters have indicated. i would love to find my tribe (or whatever the term is) and learn directly how to rewild. where are they? how do i meet them? who are the gurus (much as i despise that concept) of rewilding in this area? how do i get into this community? how to become a living part of it is the problem. breaking through the bulletin board seems also to be what you want, and is hopefully what we all want.

perhaps you should eliminate most of it altogether, and only host what you want to see. you’re (kinda) paying for it.

#23

I have not been very active on this site for a while either,because the conversations over a few months got to be quite drab for me.Alot of the posts seemed like long winded rants rather than conversation.I never liked the doom and gloom aspect even at the start of my explorations into Rewild.info.I just assumed the doom and gloom aspect was inherent in the context,since I found this site through Derrick Jensens site,talk about doom and gloom.I stayed around anyway and enjoyed quite a few conversations for awhile.I became disillusioned with the site after all the political shit started to be focused on,what do politics really have to do with rewilding.Also all the religious talk is drab,what does discussing modern religions have to do with rewilding.The section of the site I would like to see get more attention is the Invisible technologies,perhaps this section could be moved more to the top of the forum.I have come to think this stuff is far more important than other more physical skills which have come very easy for me to learn almost as if I already knew them.Maybe streamlining the forum and putting priority on the sections that lead to a rewilding culture instead of a rant about what is fucked in the world culture.I have always thought to much doom and gloom negativity cripples real action in the world and it just leaves me feeling blah.

#24

Great feedback everyone. Keep it coming. I’m going to end up going through this thread with a notebook and probably making changes at some point. On some level I kind of think the site may just stay the way it is for quite a while. I know that Jason is interested in revamping the site stylistically at some point, and we’ll probably make the changes then… of course, that’s sort of at the whim of his schedule and at this point I’m pretty unaware of that so we’ll see.

I think the idea of local chapters on this site is pretty hard to actuallize at this point, simply because of the limiting number of members here. Rather, I’d like to see this site inspire people to take rewilding to the streets of their own town and throw a rewilding open space. I’m changing the format of the Rewild Camp (taking out the skill share aspect) in my own town as a way of making more cultural, long-lasting changes and awareness for the core of rewilding as a philosophy. It would be great for me to make a video of the process and put it up here to inspire others to run their own in their own town. It’s really all about Critical mass. If I run one here in Portland and it goes well, I’ll do a Northwest Coast tour of them, etc. etc. If I ever get my book published, instead of doing a normal book tour I plan to run rewilding open spaces in every city I go to. 'course, if I had funding other than my own job I would use that money to do it with or without a book!

I’m working on a site right now (hush hush!) for the Portland version.

http://www.rewildportland.com

The idea is modeled after the BarCamp’s of the tech world. Right now I’m sort of a mess in my head. Just trying to get thoughts organized (as well as this forum organized) in a way that will inspire more Open Spaces for rewilding.

#25

I feel kinda torn.

On the one hand, to the extent this forum has helped anyone out in its present state, that makes me really happy. I really celebrate that and feel good to have possibly supported isolated rewilders in such a way.

On the other hand, unless I participate pretty heavily in this forum, I don’t see topics addressed that really matter to me.

I’ve pretty much devolved to posting lolcats for my own amusement, and upon reflection I think this has happened because I want rewilding, as we know it, to (in my humble opinion) mature into its next level (yes I used ‘lolcats’ and the word ‘mature’ in the same sentence). I don’t want to discuss civ hate anymore; I want to throw a party for rewilding, for a renaissance of Family, Land, and Village.

Even the logo to this forum doesn’t really speak to me; it looks all feral and violent. I just don’t see rewilding in that way anymore. I think for anger, grief, and getting feet wet in hating on civ, Derrick Jensen’s forum does a way better job. I want something else out of this forum here, and I’ve stopped getting it. I certainly don’t get many comments at my blog, where I do talk about what matters to me.

I still highly value building Rewild Havens, and working on all the other lost heritage stuff. It just doesn’t seem to fit here so much, as things stand.

So I’ve talked with Urban Scout about maybe transforming this place, our electronic living room, into something more reflective of Scout and me. I say this knowing that it has helped some folks out in its present state, but I think we can do even more if we push ourselves to stay honest and true to our particular vision of rewilding. I think members will appreciate the change.

At the College of Mythic Cartography I give my best stuff away, but I get the feeling that it doesn’t get much road-testing. Not dream interviews, not storyjamming, not riddle-mastery, open spaces. I know some folks out there use it, sure, but I want to really kick start a change in rewilding culture as we know it - moving it even further from a material technology basis, deeper towards a social technology paradigm.

I don’t see native peoples identifying themselves by their tools, but rather by their stories and their relationships. I want the culture of rewilding here to move decisively into this world, and to teach me ways of embodying this and practicing this in my own life, that I could never think of on my own.

#26

Hey I totally hear you Willem, those make up some of the topics that really make my heart beat when I read this site (and yours)

#27

I find that the primitive skills stuff here isn’t very comprehensive or advanced compared to say the paleoplanet forum, but that it is nice to be able to discuss such things from a rewilding perspective - as most of the people who post at these other forums are against everything that rewilding is. I am one of the people that doesn’t get too excited about the stuff at your site, Willem - or the invisible technologies part of this site. Why? I live with a group of rewilding people very intimately, constantly working through social dynamics that arise - i would be interested if there were more people with stories about what works/helps for living in a community, with hands on experience. Alot of the topics discussed in those invisible technologies areas seem too far into the realm of the intellectual for me. I come looking often for practical advice on my physical journey of rewilding, an enourmous part of which is shedding dependencies on civilization (primitive skills).
Urban Scout and Willem, I understand that what yall are excited about here has changed, but remember that rewilding is alot of things to alot of people - often when i read your writing Scout I am annoyed that you are taking ‘rewilding’ and trying to make your conception of it the official conception of it. The physical aspect of rewilding is immensely important as are the social and all other aspects.

#28

A couple of thoughts, Willem.

First - when I visit your site, the words overwhelm me. I spend a lot of time on twitter these days where if you can’t say it in 140 characters or less, it can’t be said. This is helping me focus my consumption of information so I can get more for less.

Second - I have no idea what a Mythic Map of my surroundings might be, or how it pertains to rewilding, which seems to me to be a very tangible and practical. I’m open to learning, however.

When I first found this site, my immediate thought was that it was a natural match for The Garden Earth project which has the objective of regenerating the natural wild garden state of the planet - to restore and regenerate healthy habitats for humans and other species in urban areas, in suburbia, in rural areas and on ranges.

The more time I spend here, however, the more I think maybe not.

#29

wow, i love Willem’s site! ::slight_smile:

His writings are all very tightly interwoven materials, subjects and ideas. I can imagine it being hard to follow when you just “drop” into that web of ideas and writing he has spun. Check out some of his back-issue posts and you might get a more clear picture of what this mythic landscape can be.

the Internet age makes me a restless info-junkie as well, but sometimes it can be really worth it to dig into something real deep, you might find a handful of diamonds to take back with you.

take care!

#30

Well, I posted my thoughts, and I got some answers! :wink:

Miles:

Alot of the topics discussed in those invisible technologies areas seem too far into the realm of the intellectual for me.

I use and implement everything I talk about at my blog, and want folks to use and implement it in their life to see how it works. I exactly purpose to makes these things less intellectual, and less in the realm of anthropologists and such. Still working on it!

I understand that what yall are excited about here has changed, but remember that rewilding is alot of things to alot of people

Yes, and this has caused us to start this thread. I like the word ‘rewilding’ and how it has made it more clear when I explain what I do, but it also seems to obscure the opportunity for the social, artistic, and familial renaissance for which I hunger. As I said, this place represents our (Scout’s and mine) electronic rewilding living room; we invite folks interested in what interests us here to visit and play and talk. We can’t make space for every definition of rewilding and maintain a place that we ourselves want to come home to. It makes me happy that other folks have other rewilding they prioritize; I wish them success when and where they choose to do it.

GardenEarth:

I spend a lot of time on twitter these days where if you can't say it in 140 characters or less, it can't be said.

Wow. If you can say it in 140 characters or less, for me I wonder if you need to say it? Having said that, I get some use out of twitter too; but I definitely don’t craft my writing to match that criteria. Fair enough. This may act as a permanent block to you learning about the mythic map issue, as it concerns storytelling that doesn’t fit into 140 character space.

TimeLESS:

Thanks for chiming in with your support! I hear you about how densely I weave the issues I write about…workin’ on it…

#31

OMG, I feel really excited about the new direction this forum might take. I have to say that I do enjoy the collapse & civ-hating talk, because it really helps me to talk about it with others, so I wouldn’t want it to go away entirely. Similarly, I think the physical skills stuff still has a lot to give me, especially as a resource to turn to in the future as I practice more skills. But I would feel very happy to help refocus the site along the lines of what Urban Scout and Willem said.

I feel this exact same way! The rewilding havens idea feels like the most exciting thing on this site for me, and I’d love for it to go a lot further. I currently stand at the threshold between the realization of how I want to rewild myself and my life, and making it actually happen in reality - and I have found that threshold marked by a massive chasm which feels impossible to cross. Ever since I discovered this forum it has seemed like the best (and pretty much only) lifeline to help me across, but I too have felt like it’s help has stalled. So I’m ecstatic to hear this discussion!! ;D

Jessica

#32

Didn’t mean to say I expected you to reduce your writing that far - but a summary intro that can be easily stepped into, and that hooks me into wanting to dig deeper would be helpful. I didn’t easily find that on your site.

It’s not that I am unwilling to read and write expansively - I read Neal Stephensons 900 page Baroque Cycle for heaven sakes. I am a fan of good story telling.

The feedback I meant to give is that in this age of overwhelming information overload, I scan words sentences to see if I want to go deeper.

“ReWilding” grabbed me, as did “College of Mythic Cartography”.

These are both provocative.

With ReWilding, I am finding that my definition, which relates to ReGardening doesn’t seem to be related to the mixed definitions of other people on this forum, and there seems to be little interest in my posts. That’s fair - if there is no interest, I will move on to greener pastures - literally.

College of Mythic Cartography, hooked me in, but I find as I peruse your website, there is no easy entry. It is dive head first into the deep water and start paddling or no - there is no wading pool, at least none that I’ve found, where I can splash around for a bit to see if it strikes my fancy enough to get sucked in. All those words are a huge commitment of time.

#33

This concept interests me as well. I would be very interested in hearing each of you who are interested in this concept describe what a day in the life of a ReWilding Haven would be like.

I’m interested is exploring the similarities and the differences of individual visions of this. I think it is this exploration that helps us find common ground.

#34

The greatest threat to rewilding is simple… property ownership(land). you cannot afford to purchase suitable land to become independant without large amounts of money. You cannot gain large amounts of money without significant investment of you time and efforts into civilization. you cannot maintain any property you have without regular payments of taxes etc…

As long as property ownership exists, independant people will never exist, for even if one generation is able to aquire the necessary property, their offspring will never be able to hold that property without reentering society in order to aquire the money to do so.

#35

I do agree with this, at least pertaining to rewilding on a physical level. I don’t want to hijack the direction this thread was intended to go, but I did want to quickly respond to this, and say that of all the things that need to happen for people to rewild, I see it as vital that those who “own” land connect with those who don’t - and people who rewild coming together in general. I see community as an essential part of rewilding.

I’d also like to answer GardenEarth’s question about my vision of a day in the life of a rewilding haven - I think I’ll start a new thread.

Jessica

#36

[quote=“bereal, post:35, topic:1323”][quote author=Wenatcheeguy link=topic=1404.msg14696#msg14696 date=1235481123]
The greatest threat to rewilding is simple… property ownership(land).
[/quote]

I do agree with this, at least pertaining to rewilding on a physical level. I don’t want to hijack the direction this thread was intended to go, but I did want to quickly respond to this, and say that of all the things that need to happen for people to rewild, I see it as vital that those who “own” land connect with those who don’t - and people who rewild coming together in general. I see community as an essential part of rewilding. [/quote]

Agreed, as well. The Garden Earth Project has a plan for addressing this very issue. If anyone is interested in exploring solutions to this, let’s start a thread.

[quote=“bereal, post:35, topic:1323”]I’d also like to answer GardenEarth’s question about my vision of a day in the life of a rewilding haven - I think I’ll start a new thread.

Jessica[/quote]

I’m looking forward to learning about this :slight_smile:

#37

[quote=“Wenatcheeguy, post:34, topic:1323”]The greatest threat to rewilding is simple… property ownership(land). you cannot afford to purchase suitable land to become independant without large amounts of money. You cannot gain large amounts of money without significant investment of you time and efforts into civilization. you cannot maintain any property you have without regular payments of taxes etc…

As long as property ownership exists, independant people will never exist, for even if one generation is able to aquire the necessary property, their offspring will never be able to hold that property without reentering society in order to aquire the money to do so.[/quote]

fortunately, i think there are some ways around this. in vermont, once you own land, you do not have to pay property taxes if you are unemployed. as well, if you are lucky enough to inherit land or money, the tie you are forced to maintain with civ could be greatly minimized. but even if i spent a relatively short period of time saving money to buy a chunk of land, and then had to work two weeks a year to pay the taxes, i think it would be better for me than staying poor in the city, trying to rewild there.

clearly, your overall sentiment is correct, but i don’t think it’s insurmountable, and certain situations are far worse from a rewilding perspective.

#38

[quote=“clicketyclack, post:37, topic:1323”][quote author=Wenatcheeguy link=topic=1404.msg14696#msg14696 date=1235481123]
The greatest threat to rewilding is simple… property ownership(land). you cannot afford to purchase suitable land to become independant without large amounts of money. You cannot gain large amounts of money without significant investment of you time and efforts into civilization. you cannot maintain any property you have without regular payments of taxes etc…

As long as property ownership exists, independant people will never exist, for even if one generation is able to aquire the necessary property, their offspring will never be able to hold that property without reentering society in order to aquire the money to do so.

[/quote]

fortunately, i think there are some ways around this. in vermont, once you own land, you do not have to pay property taxes if you are unemployed. as well, if you are lucky enough to inherit land or money, the tie you are forced to maintain with civ could be greatly minimized. but even if i spent a relatively short period of time saving money to buy a chunk of land, and then had to work two weeks a year to pay the taxes, i think it would be better for me than staying poor in the city, trying to rewild there.

clearly, your overall sentiment is correct, but i don’t think it’s insurmountable, and certain situations are far worse from a rewilding perspective.[/quote]

i can see that the idea of private property is contrary to the idea of rewilding. however, it is a reality. it is hard to accomplish much in life without working for it. that’s the trap of civilization, but we are all caught in it. in canada there is a lot of ‘crown’ land, which is essentially ‘unowned’. problem is that most of it is in the north, where life is hard without permanent housing, which is not allowed on crown land.
an option might be ‘mobile’ diggs. a camper and truck can move from campground to campground. i think any plan would require a minimum of ‘doing time’ in the system to make some money a few weeks a year.

#39

It is true that there are states/areas without property taxes etc… but my point is that Civ ™ WILL eventually begin taxing it… or raising existing taxes on it… especially facing an economic collapse where other sources of profit are lacking… If you are betting your existance on the Civ dependant government NOT doing what ever it takes to support itself, you are mistaken.

I am not worried about what responsibilities owning land has right now. I am worried about how someone will keep their land when Civ sends someone knocking on your door demanding something (money) for allowing you to keep it, or worse, to force your involvment in Civ by disallowing your independant use of your land, wether you like it or not (for your own good of course o.O ).

Eventually the rewild movement will become larger, and Civ will attmept to gain profit from it, and the first, and the only, guarenteed, form of control for profit that every Civ has ever relied on is land use.

The use of force (by well intentioned servants of civ) to regulate peoples access to land is the basis of Civ. You cannot live without land. You cannot own land without the permission of Civ. to get that permission you must trade what Civ wants for it. what Civ wants for it is complete obediance and servatude. If Civ feels threatened by your lack of servatude, Civ will send someone to remind you that you are only allowed to have land if you are properly subserviant. If you donnot become sufficiently subserviant, Civ will use force to remove you from your property.

Every “wild” peoples have been driven from their land if they refuse to assimilate to Civ. Control of the most basic form of lifes sustinance, Land, is the most basic control invented by Man, and the primary support structure of Civ. It is also the last source of control that Civ will give up.

If property control could be defeated, Civ would have no really viable form of control.

If you sit down and look at your life, everything you do is about land.

You serve Civ to gain land (money), you serve Civ to keep your land (money), or you serve Civ because you are not allowed to become self sufficient on your land (land use/regulation).

In the end all people live within one of these catagories.

It is illegal to NOT take part in civ. Destitution is Illegal in most places.
It is illegal to be homeless. Vagrancy is illegal in most places.
It is illegal to live without permission. Squatting/tresspassing is illegal.

Civ will never allow land to be used unless the occupant supports Civ.
People will never be allowed to exist without permission to occupy land.
Civ uses land use as the most basic form of intimidation and control.

If people changed their view of land use. Civ would have no control or method to sustain itself.