Civilization Returns

Under practices of totalitarian agriculture, there are a large amount of people who have very marginal choices, but there are multiple factors that go beyond the economic that keep people working bad jobs. The soical component is larger than the economic. If culturally, you are dependent on someone telling you what to do and how to do it, then the state of the economy is only secondary to your limit on choices. Most people who find themselves in a sweatshop position are limited by cultural factors, like lack of education, lack of social mobility (caste systems), or being stuck ‘in the way we’ve always done things’. People who break from these social systems are naturally defying that which ‘doesn’t work’, and show the capability to be economic fluid in the most limiting of circumstances.

This is where the appearance of stagnancy doesn’t mean there are truly limiting factors. A true limiting factor would prevent even the social misfits from deviating. Because of this choice, even in the darkest corners of civilization, I think what doesn’t work will fall away, rather than require a whole system to prevent what has apready been forgotten.

Grog: Well, nobody here ever said the world became a more “superior” place when genocide swept the North American continent. (This is not to idealize tribal cultures or demonize Eurpean cultures … it’s just to say that whether or not a culture survives a conflict - especially one which involves foreign diseases and technologies - is not really an accurate way to measure its worth.)

[ Re: Civilization Returns
« Reply #22 on: November 04, 2007, 08:58:30 AM »


I always felt that civilization srang from a mindset that says “we can create our own invironment to benefit us”. I feel like if we ingrained the ideals that we are ultimately at the will of the earth and should not alter it to serve us, will be ok. The main problem with that idea though is it dissempowers people from fullfilling nitches in ecosystems, such as the burning of understories and plains. I don’t know, bad point perhaps but the storing of large amounts of food kinda bothers me (not winter stashes) and altering the earths ecosestem for souly human ussage bothers me ]

  1. As Jason said, the leaver and taker mindset are born from the method of subsistance; Taker because the farmer is pit constantly against nature and to think of nature as anything other than a foe would be suicide. Leaver because if a hunter gatherer thought of the beings he/she relied on to live as enemies, he/she would die ust as quickly if not quicker. As for the three million years before agriculture, you are forgetting the development of fire, large scale hunting, and eventually horticulture. These are being brought up because it proves that that 3 million years was not a period of unfettered peace between man and nature. From this on might guess the taker philosophy had been forming for sometime before the neolithic revolution. The drive for status is not something that emerged in the past 10, 000 years, it’s just that back then it didn’t invlove money, but support, in a gift economy. When the conditions came about, the trend took off even faster. Without that drive for status, there would have never been any civilization. Waht say you?

Hmm…the phrase “unfettered peace between man and nature” is probematic to me. Pardon me while I run down some bunny-trails of thought it inspired (especially if they don’t apply to all of what you had in mind by the phrase goldenerasuburb).

First of all, it seems to begin to imply a bit of a straw-man, all-or-nothing characterization of the position that things were more ecologically harmonious before taker times. Similar to how non-primitivists talk about “noble savage myths” to characterize anyone who says primitive nomadic hunter-gatherer living might be preferable to modern industrial agricultural living, or how a few incidents were buffalo were herded off cliffs means primitive people were “just as bad” as us, when our culture is now causing mass extinction on a global scale. People want to turn these debates into all-or-nothing characatures of each side…I don’t think that’s helpful to our understanding of these issues.

It’s like when someone says “war is bad” or “we shouldn’t be manufacturing weapons of mass destruction” and a man working for the military industrial complex responds “well, do you think all killing is always wrong…what about if someone was raping your mother?”. The situation is then set up in our minds that if I reject the carpet bombing of millions of civilians or the manufacture of nuclear weapons then I would have to stand passively by and watch my mother being raped. It is a false dicotomy, since I can certainly find a balance that allows me to beat a rapist of my mother and still oppose nuclear bombs.

I’m also not a big fan of this whole debate when it goes down the road of “which people were good” v.s. “which were bad”. As I see it, people are people, but they respond to their cultural conditioning. We need to find a cultural worldview and method of subsistence that brings out the best in us, rather than the worst, that’s all.

Also, “peace between man and nature”? Where is this line between man and nature? And if the use of fire disturbs the peace along this border, where is the peace between fire and nature? Why is it that it obviously sounds absurd to talk about a line between fire and nature but not man and nature? Is it just that we’ve forgotten who we are?

I don’t see how the use of fire, horticulture or large scale hunting are part of the problems we face today. Humans and their relationships with their fellow beings here on earth have done just fine with them…in many ways our use of fire maybe our role or service to our relations (see how aboriginal australians have used fire for tens of thousands of years, or how eastern American Indians did). Just because we’ve taking these things way out of balance now, doesn’t mean they were out of balance then.

I’ll give an example to illustrate this point: If I eat nothing else but honey starting right now for the rest of my life, I’m likely to die very soon (of diabeties, obesity and/or malnutrition among other things). After my death, it’s obvious that my life got out of balance and that eating honey killed me. But does that mean that the seeds of my destruction were sowed hundreds of thousands of years ago when the first hunter gatherer learned how to get some honey from the bees? Does my death mean harvesting honey was wrong from the beginning and all of the people who ate honey for many thousands of years were just “working up” to what eventually happened to me?

I was terming it that way in response to the guy whose post preceded mine. I guess to get across the point I am trying to, I need to take it straight from the book:

THE MYTH OF EQUILIBRIUM

The assumption that primitive cultures are static is grounded in Misconception No. 2: The Idea of Intirinsic Equilibrim. The idea that cultures stay the same unless jostled by such outside forces as receding glaciers or sudden drought. Happily such notions have lost favor among many archeologists and anthropologists. But it has more than it’s share of proponents - that is, more than zero - and has deeply influenced thinking not just about agriculture but about culture generally. A recent archeology textbook asserts that cultures do not change in any patterned fasion as long as they are successfully adapted to their environments and the environments don’t change. It is this assumption of equilibrium that compels archeologists to seek an external "cause for any development as dramatic as agriculture.

Subscribers to the equilibrium fallacy underestimate the unsettling nature of human innovation - the extent to which new ideas and techniques spring from within societies and transform them. But downplaying our species genius is not the only problem. As we’ve seen, the main impediment to farming isn’t thought to be a lack of inventiveness, but a lack of neccesity. As Marvin Harris has put it, " What keeps hunter gatherers from switching over to agriculture is not ideas but cost/benefits. The idea of agriculturen is useless when you can get all the meat and vegetables you want from a few hours hunting and gathering."
Here aiding and abetting the “equilibrium fallacy,” is misconception nmber three: That human societies ar efundumentally unified devoted to meeting their collective needs. The mistake goes back to the romantic notion of hunter gatherer societies as oases of communal bliss. All for one and one for all. And if all are getting enough food, then why should any one bother trying something new?

The answer is that hunter gatherers are in truth just like us. They’re competitive, they’re status hungry, above all, they are individuals. In those hunter gatherer societies that are proto agricultural, the clsuters of cultivated wild food aren’t typically wild property, they are owned by a particular family or extended family that dispenses the harvest as it sees fit. Once you start thinking of hunter gatherers as driven by the same physical and psychic needs of themselves and their families, there is no shortage of reasons why they might cultivate plants in their spare time.

Consider (oncer again) the Northwest Indians whose lavish useo of cultivated wild plants is now coming to light through the work of the geograpeher Douglas Duer. A Kwakiutl household might have it’s own saltmarsh garden for cover roots or silverweed roots (nutritional delicacies) and might tend plots of wid berries or edible ferns. In hard times- when sya the salmon weren’t running, the family family might eat the entire harvest. But often the food would serve the family’s interests mroe obliquely. Being a gastronomical delight, it could be swapped for candlefish oil, and sometimes crates of garden grown food were paired wiht other foods and handicrafts to fetch a prised copper shield,. Often such exchnages took place between villages, orchestrated by big men, but nonzero sumness also swelled up within villages. A household might “give” a food to a needy neighbor, with a view rom future reciprocation. In the meanwhile, the giver, in addition to having garnered an IOU, enoyed soem status elevation. And families constantly in a position to give enjoyed chronically high status, like philanthropists.

Even in modern suburbs and small towns, avid gardners win local esteem by givin neighbors fresh tomatoe sor flowers. This strikes most of us as normal behavior. But the possibility that people might behave the same way in a primitive society seems rarely is never to cross the minds of archeologists as they ponder the mystery of agriculture. The various benefits of gardening were an incentive to refine it. There’s evidence that the Northwest Coast Indians were weedign out the less robust specimins, the firs tstep to domestication. And to expand on that level land in their uneven habitat, they build walls, which had the added virtue of holding nutrient rich soils. The Kwaktiutl word for garden means palce of manufactured soils. In addition to the Northwest Coast Indias and other proto agricultural societies, there are “cultural fossils” further along the evolution towards agriculture. Various “horticultural societies” grow domesticated crops in gardens but still rely on hunting and gathering. Most fo these societies resembled Northwest Coast indians, wiht Gardening a private enterprise that pays off at the family level. Thus, a Yanomamo man in the jungles of South America, having just gotten married, will clear a
garden for plantains, maize, cotton, tobacco, and other crops. He is not doing this for the good of his whole village. Indeed, he may surround the coveted tobacco with a fence, even planting sharp bones as booby traps.When he shares his harvest, he will do so selectively, cementing freindships and unwritten IOU. Repaying his own debts and ammassing status.

THE FARMER TAKES A WIFE (OR TWO)

Could something as ephemeral as status really entice people into becoming agricultural innovators even when they face no regular shortage of food. The answer comes from looking at the top of the pecking order- at the Big Man or “Head Man”, a version of what is found among the Yanomomo and horticultural societies generally Big Men tend to have not ust big gardens but big numbers of choice wives.

The idea here isn’t that aspiring Big Men sketched out a systematic plan for aquiring multiple wives. During the evolution of our the evolution of our species, one of the benefits of male status was easier access to sex. (So too with our nearest relatives, the chimpanzees, bonobos, and gorillas. Because of this correlation between status and fecundity, genes imbuing males with a thirst for status have fared well by natural selection. The resulting drive to impress people needn’t bring conscious awareness of it’s reason for being anymore than it entails a knowledge of nutrition. Status just feels gratifying, it can be it’s own reward. , even if it’s ultimate evolutionary purpose was genetic proliferation.

On the other hand, conscious awareness of the sexual payoffs for farming is, if not necessary, hardly out of the question. When Soni of the Solomon Islands was preparing those thirty two succlent pigs he knew he wasn’t going to eat, he no doubt knew that the more adroit Solomo Islad Feast givers, that is Big Men, got as many as four wives. Indeed, sometimes the link between the amassing food and amassing wives is explicit. Among the Northwest Coast Indians and some other polygamous people, loads of garden grown food could be part of the brideprice paid for a wife.

Archeologists, faced with the observed correlation between a farmer’s status and wealth on the one hand, and his number of wives and offspring in another have tended to get things backwards. Big Men are said to seek multiple wives “since many wives produce more food than one wife” and more children because 'many children produce more food than few children." To be sure, Big Men may value the labor provided by a large family. But in terms of the ultimate logic of their quest - the Darwinian logic that selected the genes that fuel their quest - they are amassing food to amass wives, not the other way around. If it pays off nutritionally, that’s great, but even if it doesn’t, it is valuable, because it raises their status in relation to competing males. Among the Trobiand Islanders, one anthropologist reports, farmers aimed to accumulate so many yams that they may rot in storehouses and stimulate the envy of their rivals.

The problem with scholars mystified by agriculture’s orgins is that they tend to view the heirchy as a product of domestication., in which case, it couldn’t be a cause. Hence, misconception number four: The notion of the egalitarian hunter band

From here, I’ll have to sum it up, since I’m getting tired of copying all this down:

Two examples are given on hunter gatherer bands being prone to social climbing, the second one the most important: The Gana,within whom 1/4 of the men have more than one wife. It is then noted that the reason that the reason Gana’s social inequality cannot have eemerged with agriculture is that 5 percent of the !Kung men had more than one wife. The subtlety of this stratification is because of the fact that if there were a shortfall, the results cold be felt by any one family. Therefore, it is in everybody’s best interest to share their resources. With the Gana, those restraints are lifted.

It then gives a theory for a transition from hunter gatherer to agricultural:
Hayden’s "competitive feasting theory: If in any society some aspiring big Man can get fellow villagers to produce lots of food, he can use it to gain status in his feasts with other villagers. In the process he gains political within his own village.
The mistake Hayden makes, says the author, is claiming that this kind of thing exists in some people and not in others. I’m sure we can agree that’s false. Some people climb higher than others, but the urge to climb is still there. The more widespreadnthe urge to impress, the stronger the drive of cultural evolution. If everyone is striving, than every increment in th development of agriculture is easier to explain. What do you think?

i’m a piss poor scholar and far and away from being either an anthropologist or an archaeologist.

you probably really want to have this discussion w/ Jason Godesky.

i’ll throw a couple things out tho’

first, “competitive feasting” is still subject to diminishing returns. undoubtedly it happened, undoubtedly it will happen again, undoubtedly it’s far less of an obnoxious practice than is generally assumed, undoubtedly it, too, will collapse if taken too far.

second, i’m not sure domestication is as especially straightforward as is suggested here. plant cultivation is a fairly deep topic, and i’ve started to think that it may be difficult to find a specific line between cultivation and domestication in plants. what’s more, if you want to take this line of thought to an extreme, you could also say that bears cultivate their favorite berries by eating the fruit (seeds & all) then depositing shit seedballs so the next generation of berries have a head start.

i think what it all comes down to is relationships, and those really aren’t easy to immediately suss out.