It's your attitude that civilization can't be stopped that helps to keep it going, as if it were some 'thing' seperate from people and their activities independently marching to its own momentum. By shrugging your shoulders you are therefore enabling that momentum.
How am I enabling civ’s momentum? Rejecting civilization and moving as far from it as possible is a pretty damn good way to not contribute to the machine. I don’t mean “machine” as a seperate entity from humanity, for we are very much operating this machine. I see no harm in trying to get away.
You mean I have to tell you? Does that mean you don't know? How does anything get stopped? By running away? How does any radical change occur, whether from primal lifeways to civilization or vice versa? How did Europeans conquer the New World, and how did many in the New World resist? This should be obvious.
You intend to fight? You think we can fight civilization down to rubble? I think it’s naive to think that’s possible. There are just so many people (who happen to be the powerful) who will do ANYTHING to keep civilization running. Some Native Americans fought against a larger and more powerful force than themselves, and how did that work out for them? There was nothing they could have done to stop the Europeans. It’s the same for us.
Some of what I am doing is educational outreach to help get people thinking about their lives in a different way.
That’s excellent, but will that do even a fraction of what it takes to bring civ down? Changing minds is great and I totally support you doing that, if for nothing more than helping a few individuals see the light. Millions of people have read Ishmael, but has that even slightly changed the way our mass society thinks as a whole?
The collapse of civilization on its own is quite probable but not inevitable. In any case I doubt the final recognizable end will happen in our lifetime.
I don’t agree. Civilization is inherently unsustainable. The machine is running out of fuel. It’s running out of all the material it relies on to upkeep itself. Those reasons along with a hundred others ensure that it can not and will not go for much longer.
In any case I doubt the final recognizable end will happen in our lifetime. So adopting a defeatist attitude doesn't sound like an appealing option to me.
I hate timeline predictions. No one knows what civilization will look like in 20, 40, or 70 years(if it’s even still there). But if civilization doesn’t fully collapse in my lifetime, wouldn’t I want to spend my life as far away from civ as possible in the wilderness? Living the rest of my life fighting an always unavailing fight in the cities while being entirely involved in the civilizational lifestyle doesn’t sound like an appealing option to me.
What I asked was whether this was the answer, as the theme of collapsist philosophies seem to suggest.
Answer to what? How to bring down civilization? Since I don’t believe we will bring down civ, I wasn’t actually looking for an answer. But running off to the woods can be an answer for some people. The people who can’t stand their lives in civ and would be happier to live away from it.
Is living in the wilderness the only, or the best strategy? What kind of a strategy is it? A battle strategy or a coping mechanism? Could it be both? I think these are important questions.
Here we get to our differences regarding what each of us believe about civilization’s collapse. You don’t believe collapse is inevitable, so you want to have a battle plan of sorts in which to personally attack civilization, thereby in some way contributing to its downfall. I, however, believe the task of us unpowerful people bringing down civilization is far, far too huge to be done. Instead, I believe civ will collapse itself(we are in the process of collapse right now). So I’m not looking for a strategy to bring down civ. However, living in the wilderness can be seen as a survival strategy. No one knows when, but when civ is far along in collapse, the people who have primitive wilderness living skills are going to be the ones who survive. While you’re inside civilization fighting it, what are you going to do when it’s over? Finally be able to go off to the woods and realize you and your friends and family don’t have the skills necessary to survive outside civilization. I’m not saying you don’t have primitive skills(because I don’t know you), but I am saying that people who were living in the wilds years before collapse are going to be in a much better situation.
When it's presented as "running away" to the wilderness, then I naturally become suspicious that what's motivating this is fear rather than some considered strategy based on a comprehensive understanding of the problem.
Just because it’s presented as “running away” doesn’t mean it’s the result of fear. It’s just a term we use that doesn’t actually explain the motives for the act. “Running away” could be out of anger, fear, fun, happiness, or no reason at all.
If running off to the wilderness is merely escapism without other plans or strategies in place, then it will always be a losing proposition. Civilization, sooner or later, will engulf you. When you hear the chainsaws getting closer, what will you do? Retreat further? How long will that game go on? And what about your kids and their future? So, damn right, I question whether it's "the best they can do".
I see nothing wrong with escapism when we’re trying to escape something that absolutely sucks. Escaping something that makes you unhappy and depressed for something that gives you joy and satisfaction seems all right to me. You seem to think this is worthless though. You would rather fight civ than escape it. Now we’re back to our different civ collapse philosophies. I believe fighting it is worthless. Fortunately, I don’t believe civilization will last long enough to engulf all the wild lands around(especially where I live). So I’d rather make the best of my current situation and live in the wilds while I can, hone my skills, and be better prepared down the line for collapse.
